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Force Trim


Dannyvandelft

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The other thing that is probably currently causing issues is the way the SAS sleeves re-centre vs the trim function. If you are not using the "central position" trim function then the trim activates instantly, but you have to hold the trim button to pull the SAS sleeves to the correct position, and that takes time.  All the time you have the trim button held down, because it's instantly activated, you effectively have a 200% control gain function, where every stick input move the trim AND the cyclic in the same direction. 

The simple solution would be the SAS sleeves start re-centering on "button press" but the trim only hits on "button release". If that were combined with the blending function that brings in the trim over an amount of time (like the UH-1 and Ka-50) then I suspect the handling would be as easy as the Huey. Alternatively add two other commands "trim only (no SAS)" and SAS Only (no trim)" so people can create the mapping themselves.

In the meantime the amazing "pause on button press" via joystick gremlin applied to the trim button is nearly as good, since while the SAS sleeves are moving your cyclic is fixed, but you retain the quick-press function to get at the trim if you don't need to re-centre the SAS.

Looks like this has been fixed in the first patch.


Edited by Scaley
fixed
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14 hours ago, Frederf said:

Post #4 details how it used to work. It should still be there somewhere but I don't know where exactly.

Quote

HelicopterTrimmerTauInverse = 7.0 - time factor for the period given the player to re-center his controls when using the original trimmer implementation

The tracks lead 10 years back to Black Shark, the parameter for other helicopters cannot be changed.

Thanks for the link.

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On 3/31/2022 at 11:19 AM, BIGNEWY said:

No,

with instant you dont recenter, its instantly trimmed, so is best for FFB sticks

centered the trim is set and you then release the stick to centre the spring. This leaves your newly set trimmed position as the center essentially. 

"with instant you dont recenter, its instantly trimmed, so is best for FFB sticks"

It works quite well for spring centering sticks also, It's what I am using and I don't have a FFB stick. I figure if its good enough for Cosmo it's good enough for me. ")


Edited by pii
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40 minutes ago, pii said:

"with instant you dont recenter, its instantly trimmed, so is best for FFB sticks"

It works quite well for spring centering sticks also, It's what I am using and I don't have a FFB stick. I figure if its good enough for Cosmo it's good enough for me. ")

 

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55 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Whatever works best for you is fine with me 🙂

Wasn't about me its the fact that it sounded like it had to be used with FFB in the post which it does not. I think you would agree with that? 🙂

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I've been using the instant/FFB option ever since the release of the Ka-50 with my Warthog and now with my VKB Ultimate controller. I never could get use to the return to center option. 

 

 

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is it just me or are more people having problems with the trim function 

when i have a stable position or flight and press trim hold 

the current position becomes the new neutral with joystick inputs compounded on top of that sending you into some very rough flight 

in the black shark you set trim to current stick positions this just feels more natural

apache_trim.jpg

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Are you using the "Central position trimmer mode"? If that is selected, then you return the stick to center before your controls will work again. That can prevent the sudden lurching. 

With the option that is selected by default, you have to return to center very quickly (forget the timing, but within a half a second I think) or else you'll get that lurch as continued input would compound onto the new trim position, as you mentioned. 

Central position mode basically turns off your controller input until you first return your stick back to center. 

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15 minutes ago, t1mb0b said:

you missed the 26 pages ?

 

Always some Jabroni referencing the manual when someone asks a question on a forum 🙄  Moderator, please shut the forums down as all we really need is the manual apparently.  Seriously, what kind of idiot asks a question on a forum!?  Anyways, there is a sticky in the main forum on this subject.  Just change to Central Position Trimmer in the options menu and it will behave like the Ka 50.  Why this is not the default position in the game is beyond me, yet it seems like every time they release a helicopter it's like this.  It would save SO MANY forum posts and confusion if ED would just do this...

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Apache Trim... is that some kind of haircut? 😄

Just some levity to a deteriorating thread.

 


Edited by Sarge55
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6 hours ago, aleader said:

Always some Jabroni referencing the manual when someone asks a question on a forum 🙄 

He didn't reference the manual, though. He referred the OP to a very long thread which is actually pinned right at the top of the forum for a reason.

If he'd said 'go check the manual', the criticism would have been due. But he didn't.

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On 4/6/2022 at 4:01 PM, LooseSeal said:

He didn't reference the manual, though. He referred the OP to a very long thread which is actually pinned right at the top of the forum for a reason.

If he'd said 'go check the manual', the criticism would have been due. But he didn't.

Semantics.  There's already a thread on trim (that references the manual), so nobody can ever again ask a trim question without some Jabroni referencing the thread that he has already seen 🙄


Edited by aleader

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On 4/2/2022 at 2:44 PM, pii said:

Wasn't about me its the fact that it sounded like it had to be used with FFB in the post which it does not. I think you would agree with that? 🙂

its not so much "had" as it is "should".

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Why not have a trim system that just allows you to centre the stick separate to either of the current options, the bit I don’t get is why freeze the controls on one setting and on the other add in the extra deflection.

Is there really any need for the added complexity of either systems? Why not trim and have neither side effects.

im sure there is a deep rooted answer beyond my understanding otherwise it would already be an option no?

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On 4/6/2022 at 5:05 PM, aleader said:

Always some Jabroni referencing the manual when someone asks a question on a forum 🙄  Moderator, please shut the forums down as all we really need is the manual apparently.  Seriously, what kind of idiot asks a question on a forum!?  Anyways, there is a sticky in the main forum on this subject.  Just change to Central Position Trimmer in the options menu and it will behave like the Ka 50.  Why this is not the default position in the game is beyond me, yet it seems like every time they release a helicopter it's like this.  It would save SO MANY forum posts and confusion if ED would just do this...

Probably because someone like me hates the central position trim. 

In the Ka-50, as soon as learned to hold the trim button, release it when I was happy, quickly center the stick, and press the trim button again, before I moved the stick. Rinse and repeat. I found that the most easy way of flying the Shark. Pretty much how I still do it in every helicopter even with my FFB stick. Except for the Apache. It just really awkward doing it with the hat, but I'm sure I'll get used to it, but I find that I hardly actually need to trim it the way it is now. 😊 

If it is true that you need to centre the stick even quicker with the Apache than people are used to, I can see an issue. 

Anyway, for those of you who struggle. Try like in the Ka-50. Use the default, and whenvee you move the stick, hold the trim button, and quickly release it and centre the stick when you are trimmed. With a try? 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

27 minutes ago, RuskyV said:

Why not have a trim system that just allows you to centre the stick separate to either of the current options, the bit I don’t get is why freeze the controls on one setting and on the other add in the extra deflection.

Is there really any need for the added complexity of either systems? Why not trim and have neither side effects.

im sure there is a deep rooted answer beyond my understanding otherwise it would already be an option no?

Seems like you are describing the option without springs nor FFB. 

I'm probably missing something in what you say. 😊 

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3 hours ago, RuskyV said:

Why not have a trim system that just allows you to centre the stick separate to either of the current options, the bit I don’t get is why freeze the controls on one setting and on the other add in the extra deflection.

Realize that the Apache stick doesn't center when the trim button is pressed. If it was 25% deflected and trimmed, it's still 25% deflected. It is our simple spring joysticks which don't behave properly. If input was +0.1 and then trim is pressed, what happens? With instant you get 0.1 as the new center and instant +0.1 for 0.2 total. With freeze the input isn't added until it returns to (essentially) 0. At some point the position of the cyclic has to be a different relationship to input after trim compared to before time.

I think the lock-and-window type scheme is unacceptable that it prevents any control input until you hit a window. Instant has an unfortunate upset where the relationship is changed suddenly but the user is still in control. The old Ka-50 method of a time-based blended transition was a better version of instant. I think there could be a better version with blending that was smart, based on how the user was moving the stick back to neutral instead of a "blind" blending based on time.

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53 minutes ago, Frederf said:

 

I think the lock-and-window type scheme is unacceptable that it prevents any control input until you hit a window.

if your aircraft is trimmed, you shouldnt have to worry about centering your joystick for a brief moment.

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1 hour ago, Hammer1-1 said:

if your aircraft is trimmed, you shouldnt have to worry about centering your joystick for a brief moment.

This is what I’m really talking about, why not have a trim allow the joystick be in the position you left it until you move it back to centre without any of the penalties. A lot of the issues people have had with the trim have all been around the behaviour of either options. 

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3 minutes ago, RuskyV said:

This is what I’m really talking about, why not have a trim allow the joystick be in the position you left it until you move it back to centre without any of the penalties. A lot of the issues people have had with the trim have all been around the behaviour of either options. 

That's how Central position trimmer mode works. You hit trim - joystick is in the position left until you move it back to the center. I'm just confused as to what other penalties do you have with central trimmer mode? 

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12 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

That's how Central position trimmer mode works. You hit trim - joystick is in the position left until you move it back to the center. I'm just confused as to what other penalties do you have with central trimmer mode? 

I understand both options, what I'm trying to say is why do the trim options have either of the two side effects after trimming?

 

15 hours ago, Frederf said:

Realize that the Apache stick doesn't center when the trim button is pressed. If it was 25% deflected and trimmed, it's still 25% deflected. It is our simple spring joysticks which don't behave properly. If input was +0.1 and then trim is pressed, what happens? With instant you get 0.1 as the new center and instant +0.1 for 0.2 total. With freeze the input isn't added until it returns to (essentially) 0. At some point the position of the cyclic has to be a different relationship to input after trim compared to before time.

I think the lock-and-window type scheme is unacceptable that it prevents any control input until you hit a window. Instant has an unfortunate upset where the relationship is changed suddenly but the user is still in control. The old Ka-50 method of a time-based blended transition was a better version of instant. I think there could be a better version with blending that was smart, based on how the user was moving the stick back to neutral instead of a "blind" blending based on time.


Wouldn't a better method be to blend both options? or even better have the FFB friendly option minus the stick input back towards centre as this is where your joystick is going to go anyway.

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