Razor18 Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 ATT Hold already works in normal flight regime, dunno how accurately tough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederf Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 11 hours ago, petsild said: You can show the exact path to the lua file, thank you. Post #4 details how it used to work. It should still be there somewhere but I don't know where exactly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scaley Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) The other thing that is probably currently causing issues is the way the SAS sleeves re-centre vs the trim function. If you are not using the "central position" trim function then the trim activates instantly, but you have to hold the trim button to pull the SAS sleeves to the correct position, and that takes time. All the time you have the trim button held down, because it's instantly activated, you effectively have a 200% control gain function, where every stick input move the trim AND the cyclic in the same direction. The simple solution would be the SAS sleeves start re-centering on "button press" but the trim only hits on "button release". If that were combined with the blending function that brings in the trim over an amount of time (like the UH-1 and Ka-50) then I suspect the handling would be as easy as the Huey. Alternatively add two other commands "trim only (no SAS)" and SAS Only (no trim)" so people can create the mapping themselves. In the meantime the amazing "pause on button press" via joystick gremlin applied to the trim button is nearly as good, since while the SAS sleeves are moving your cyclic is fixed, but you retain the quick-press function to get at the trim if you don't need to re-centre the SAS. Looks like this has been fixed in the first patch. Edited April 2, 2022 by Scaley fixed 476th vFighter Group Main Page -- YouTube -- Discord Scaley AV YouTube - More videos from the 476th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petsild Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 14 hours ago, Frederf said: Post #4 details how it used to work. It should still be there somewhere but I don't know where exactly. Quote HelicopterTrimmerTauInverse = 7.0 - time factor for the period given the player to re-center his controls when using the original trimmer implementation The tracks lead 10 years back to Black Shark, the parameter for other helicopters cannot be changed. Thanks for the link. MSI PRO Z690-A DDR4, Kingston 3600 MHz 64 Gb, i5 12600K, Gigabyte RTX 4090, Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus,VKB NXT Premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pii Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 (edited) On 3/31/2022 at 11:19 AM, BIGNEWY said: No, with instant you dont recenter, its instantly trimmed, so is best for FFB sticks centered the trim is set and you then release the stick to centre the spring. This leaves your newly set trimmed position as the center essentially. "with instant you dont recenter, its instantly trimmed, so is best for FFB sticks" It works quite well for spring centering sticks also, It's what I am using and I don't have a FFB stick. I figure if its good enough for Cosmo it's good enough for me. ") Edited April 2, 2022 by pii 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted April 2, 2022 ED Team Share Posted April 2, 2022 40 minutes ago, pii said: "with instant you dont recenter, its instantly trimmed, so is best for FFB sticks" It works quite well for spring centering sticks also, It's what I am using and I don't have a FFB stick. I figure if its good enough for Cosmo it's good enough for me. ") Whatever works best for you is fine with me Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pii Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 55 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said: Whatever works best for you is fine with me Wasn't about me its the fact that it sounded like it had to be used with FFB in the post which it does not. I think you would agree with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlaw24 Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 I've been using the instant/FFB option ever since the release of the Ka-50 with my Warthog and now with my VKB Ultimate controller. I never could get use to the return to center option. Spoiler: MSI Z790 Carbon WIFI, i9 14900KF, 64GB DDR4, MSI RTX 4090, Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle, VKB Gunfighter Ultimate MCG Pro w/200mm Extension, Winwing Orion Rudder Pedals W/damper, UTC MK II Pro, Virpil TCS Plus Collective, Dell AW3418DW Gsync monitor, 970 Pro M2 1TB (for DCS), Playseat Air Force Seat, KW-980 Jetseat, Vaicom Pro, 3X TM Cougar with Lilliput 8" screens. Tek Creations panels and controllers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTS_Maton Posted April 6, 2022 Share Posted April 6, 2022 is it just me or are more people having problems with the trim function when i have a stable position or flight and press trim hold the current position becomes the new neutral with joystick inputs compounded on top of that sending you into some very rough flight in the black shark you set trim to current stick positions this just feels more natural Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram69 Posted April 6, 2022 Share Posted April 6, 2022 Are you using the "Central position trimmer mode"? If that is selected, then you return the stick to center before your controls will work again. That can prevent the sudden lurching. With the option that is selected by default, you have to return to center very quickly (forget the timing, but within a half a second I think) or else you'll get that lurch as continued input would compound onto the new trim position, as you mentioned. Central position mode basically turns off your controller input until you first return your stick back to center. 1 13700k, 64GB DDR5, RTX 3080, 1x 4TB M.2, 3x 2TB M.2, @ 3440x1440p, Windows 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t1mb0b Posted April 6, 2022 Share Posted April 6, 2022 (edited) you missed the 26 pages ? Edited April 6, 2022 by t1mb0b 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleader Posted April 6, 2022 Share Posted April 6, 2022 15 minutes ago, t1mb0b said: you missed the 26 pages ? Always some Jabroni referencing the manual when someone asks a question on a forum Moderator, please shut the forums down as all we really need is the manual apparently. Seriously, what kind of idiot asks a question on a forum!? Anyways, there is a sticky in the main forum on this subject. Just change to Central Position Trimmer in the options menu and it will behave like the Ka 50. Why this is not the default position in the game is beyond me, yet it seems like every time they release a helicopter it's like this. It would save SO MANY forum posts and confusion if ED would just do this... 3 "I mean, I guess it would just be a guy who you know, grabs bananas and runs. Or, um, a banana that grabs things. Why would a banana grab another banana? I mean, those are the kind of questions I don't want to answer." - Michael Bluth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge55 Posted April 6, 2022 Share Posted April 6, 2022 (edited) Apache Trim... is that some kind of haircut? Just some levity to a deteriorating thread. Edited April 6, 2022 by Sarge55 7 2 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] i7 10700K OC 5.1GHZ / 500GB SSD & 1TB M:2 & 4TB HDD / MSI Gaming MB / GTX 1080 / 32GB RAM / Win 10 / TrackIR 4 Pro / CH Pedals / TM Warthog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacarino111 Posted April 6, 2022 Share Posted April 6, 2022 3 hours ago, Sarge55 said: Apache Trim... is that some kind of haircut? Great! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LooseSeal Posted April 6, 2022 Share Posted April 6, 2022 6 hours ago, aleader said: Always some Jabroni referencing the manual when someone asks a question on a forum He didn't reference the manual, though. He referred the OP to a very long thread which is actually pinned right at the top of the forum for a reason. If he'd said 'go check the manual', the criticism would have been due. But he didn't. 3 - i7-7700k - 32GB DDR4 2400Mhz - GTX 1080 8GB - Installed on SSD - TM Warthog DCS Modules - A-10C; M-2000C; AV8B; F/A-18C; Ka-50; FC-3; UH-1H; F-5E; Mi-8; F-14; Persian Gulf; NTTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleader Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 (edited) On 4/6/2022 at 4:01 PM, LooseSeal said: He didn't reference the manual, though. He referred the OP to a very long thread which is actually pinned right at the top of the forum for a reason. If he'd said 'go check the manual', the criticism would have been due. But he didn't. Semantics. There's already a thread on trim (that references the manual), so nobody can ever again ask a trim question without some Jabroni referencing the thread that he has already seen Edited April 8, 2022 by aleader "I mean, I guess it would just be a guy who you know, grabs bananas and runs. Or, um, a banana that grabs things. Why would a banana grab another banana? I mean, those are the kind of questions I don't want to answer." - Michael Bluth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer1-1 Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 On 4/2/2022 at 2:44 PM, pii said: Wasn't about me its the fact that it sounded like it had to be used with FFB in the post which it does not. I think you would agree with that? its not so much "had" as it is "should". Intel 13900k @ 5.8ghz | 64gb GSkill Trident Z | MSI z790 Meg ACE| Zotac RTX4090 | Asus 1000w psu | Slaw RX Viper 2 pedals | VKB Gunfighter Mk3 MCE Ultimate + STECS/ Virpil MongoosT50+ MongoosT50CM | K-51 Collective + custom AH64D TEDAC | HP Reverb G2 | Windows 11 Pro | |Samsung Odyssey G9 | Next Level Racing Flight Seat Pro The Boeing MQ-25A Sting Ray = Dirt Devil with wings My wallpaper and skins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuskyV Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 Why not have a trim system that just allows you to centre the stick separate to either of the current options, the bit I don’t get is why freeze the controls on one setting and on the other add in the extra deflection. Is there really any need for the added complexity of either systems? Why not trim and have neither side effects. im sure there is a deep rooted answer beyond my understanding otherwise it would already be an option no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAXsenna Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 On 4/6/2022 at 5:05 PM, aleader said: Always some Jabroni referencing the manual when someone asks a question on a forum Moderator, please shut the forums down as all we really need is the manual apparently. Seriously, what kind of idiot asks a question on a forum!? Anyways, there is a sticky in the main forum on this subject. Just change to Central Position Trimmer in the options menu and it will behave like the Ka 50. Why this is not the default position in the game is beyond me, yet it seems like every time they release a helicopter it's like this. It would save SO MANY forum posts and confusion if ED would just do this... Probably because someone like me hates the central position trim. In the Ka-50, as soon as learned to hold the trim button, release it when I was happy, quickly center the stick, and press the trim button again, before I moved the stick. Rinse and repeat. I found that the most easy way of flying the Shark. Pretty much how I still do it in every helicopter even with my FFB stick. Except for the Apache. It just really awkward doing it with the hat, but I'm sure I'll get used to it, but I find that I hardly actually need to trim it the way it is now. If it is true that you need to centre the stick even quicker with the Apache than people are used to, I can see an issue. Anyway, for those of you who struggle. Try like in the Ka-50. Use the default, and whenvee you move the stick, hold the trim button, and quickly release it and centre the stick when you are trimmed. With a try? 27 minutes ago, RuskyV said: Why not have a trim system that just allows you to centre the stick separate to either of the current options, the bit I don’t get is why freeze the controls on one setting and on the other add in the extra deflection. Is there really any need for the added complexity of either systems? Why not trim and have neither side effects. im sure there is a deep rooted answer beyond my understanding otherwise it would already be an option no? Seems like you are describing the option without springs nor FFB. I'm probably missing something in what you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederf Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 3 hours ago, RuskyV said: Why not have a trim system that just allows you to centre the stick separate to either of the current options, the bit I don’t get is why freeze the controls on one setting and on the other add in the extra deflection. Realize that the Apache stick doesn't center when the trim button is pressed. If it was 25% deflected and trimmed, it's still 25% deflected. It is our simple spring joysticks which don't behave properly. If input was +0.1 and then trim is pressed, what happens? With instant you get 0.1 as the new center and instant +0.1 for 0.2 total. With freeze the input isn't added until it returns to (essentially) 0. At some point the position of the cyclic has to be a different relationship to input after trim compared to before time. I think the lock-and-window type scheme is unacceptable that it prevents any control input until you hit a window. Instant has an unfortunate upset where the relationship is changed suddenly but the user is still in control. The old Ka-50 method of a time-based blended transition was a better version of instant. I think there could be a better version with blending that was smart, based on how the user was moving the stick back to neutral instead of a "blind" blending based on time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer1-1 Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 53 minutes ago, Frederf said: I think the lock-and-window type scheme is unacceptable that it prevents any control input until you hit a window. if your aircraft is trimmed, you shouldnt have to worry about centering your joystick for a brief moment. 1 Intel 13900k @ 5.8ghz | 64gb GSkill Trident Z | MSI z790 Meg ACE| Zotac RTX4090 | Asus 1000w psu | Slaw RX Viper 2 pedals | VKB Gunfighter Mk3 MCE Ultimate + STECS/ Virpil MongoosT50+ MongoosT50CM | K-51 Collective + custom AH64D TEDAC | HP Reverb G2 | Windows 11 Pro | |Samsung Odyssey G9 | Next Level Racing Flight Seat Pro The Boeing MQ-25A Sting Ray = Dirt Devil with wings My wallpaper and skins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuskyV Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Hammer1-1 said: if your aircraft is trimmed, you shouldnt have to worry about centering your joystick for a brief moment. This is what I’m really talking about, why not have a trim allow the joystick be in the position you left it until you move it back to centre without any of the penalties. A lot of the issues people have had with the trim have all been around the behaviour of either options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerzone Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 3 minutes ago, RuskyV said: This is what I’m really talking about, why not have a trim allow the joystick be in the position you left it until you move it back to centre without any of the penalties. A lot of the issues people have had with the trim have all been around the behaviour of either options. That's how Central position trimmer mode works. You hit trim - joystick is in the position left until you move it back to the center. I'm just confused as to what other penalties do you have with central trimmer mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuskyV Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 12 hours ago, Dangerzone said: That's how Central position trimmer mode works. You hit trim - joystick is in the position left until you move it back to the center. I'm just confused as to what other penalties do you have with central trimmer mode? I understand both options, what I'm trying to say is why do the trim options have either of the two side effects after trimming? 15 hours ago, Frederf said: Realize that the Apache stick doesn't center when the trim button is pressed. If it was 25% deflected and trimmed, it's still 25% deflected. It is our simple spring joysticks which don't behave properly. If input was +0.1 and then trim is pressed, what happens? With instant you get 0.1 as the new center and instant +0.1 for 0.2 total. With freeze the input isn't added until it returns to (essentially) 0. At some point the position of the cyclic has to be a different relationship to input after trim compared to before time. I think the lock-and-window type scheme is unacceptable that it prevents any control input until you hit a window. Instant has an unfortunate upset where the relationship is changed suddenly but the user is still in control. The old Ka-50 method of a time-based blended transition was a better version of instant. I think there could be a better version with blending that was smart, based on how the user was moving the stick back to neutral instead of a "blind" blending based on time. Wouldn't a better method be to blend both options? or even better have the FFB friendly option minus the stick input back towards centre as this is where your joystick is going to go anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerzone Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 1 hour ago, RuskyV said: I understand both options, what I'm trying to say is why do the trim options have either of the two side effects after trimming? What side effects please? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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