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Force Trim


Dannyvandelft

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6 minutes ago, Razor18 said:

I use the same, but it doesn't disables my pedal trim. When flicking Trim hat up, need to recenter pedal too. Will check again tough...

 

That sounds like the central trimmer option.

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Incredible I still didn't see a single video of how to manage this... 

First I understand that in the real aircraft the cyclic is "stuck" in a position so when you press the Force Trim up, it allows you to move and once you release it it stucks in that position. The problem is that unless we have a force feedback one, the joystick will move so I set up the special options to be both pedals and cyclic in the central position compensation mode, instead of the INSTANT TRIM (that is more or less as the K50 is)

Once I set the central option all more or less is ok... BUT there are two functions that don't work, and I don't know how (maybe they are a bug).

The ATT HOLD and ALT hold. None of them works. I manage the helicopter to be more or less in a hover position and trim. Then I press the Left force trim to maintain the position.. but it just drift away (no wind). Also set the ALT hold.. but nothing.. it goes up or down, not moving the colective.

I have the  AH64D manual and here is what it says that once the hold is mainteined whe have to press the FTR for 3 seconds to hold the new situation....

First I don''t know where that FTR button is in the sim. It seems that maybe is the ForceTrim R/UP? but if I press it for 3 seconds.. the aircraft banks a lot and it "destroys" the hover that I managed to have manually.

But none of those submodes are engaged when applied. There are also position and velocity hold submodes that are not achieved. 

Those are ok? or still this mode is need to be developed?

Thanks!

 


Edited by Japo32
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When trimming the appache, some controls may be released while others are still locked. 
It lead me a few time to some close calls and crashes.

Trimming will also reduce the control range. In some situations, it feels like controls are locked.

Finally trimming does not transfer between pilot and cpg.

would it be possible to implement a system:
-That instead of having controls centered to regain control, brings the controls towards the new center over a X seconds time period (ideally selectable in the special options)
-Have an option to maintain the same trim in multiplayer
-Have the option to maintain full control range either through increased sensitivity or curves or combination of both.

Meanwhile a quick improvement would be to make the center zone larger.

Otherwise, great module ! 
Thank you 🙂 


Edited by pierrewind
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I think the confusion that so many are having is that Force Trim Release doesnt do what folks expect it to do if they have transitioned from the KA50, Heuy or Hip.

Having come from the KA50, the Huey and the Hip, the various Trim Reset buttons allowed the trim to recenter in the middle of the axis. This was INCREDIBLY helpful when you are transitioning from fast fwd flight to slow flight to enter the hover.

As an example, enable "Show Controls" and follow along in your DCS AH-64D:

Hold stick in a non-neutral position, press Force Trim UP (the manual calls this force trim release, because when depressed its letting go of the magnetic devices that physically hold the stick in place - your non FFB joystick cannot simulate this.) Return your stick to a neutral position. Now, verify in show controls that your stick is being held in a non-neutral position.

Now, here is where the rub is.. and where many pilots (myself included) are struggling.

In the KA50/Heuy/Hip, we now have a button to 'force our trim back to its neutral position' (what many are calling a 'force trim reset.') In the Hip, this button is "Trim- RESET to default," in the Heuy this button is "Trimmer reset," and in the KA50 this button is called "Trimmer reset."  No such button exists in the DCS AH-64D.

As some have suggested, simply hold Force Trim Fwd (release) and hold your joystick in its neutral position and release Force Trim Fwd. This does not work. DCS is not resetting the trim into the neutral position. The only way I have found to get the trim back to its neutral position is to open show controls and physically move the stick back to neutral and then press Force Trim Fwd (release) to reset the trim near the neutral position. This is not ideal in VR. 

So for now, I believe the answer is "you gotta trim trim trim." 

But I believe the ask from the community is a simple "Trim- Reset to default" button that we can bind, just like in the Hip/Huey/KA50, to help us overcome this hurdle.

TJ

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I Know that there is no reset trim to put into the center position, but I think there should be one added, because in real Apache, we know without moving where the Cyclic and the pedals are, but in non force feedback spring joy-pedals, always they will return to the center, so to "reset" now in the sim, we have to look into them, counter action in joysticks and release the UP Force Trim. Which is not good as we remove the view from outside.

This is one of those situations when perfect simulation is not ok (at least for me)

by the way, ATT hold is not maintained. At least in my case....


Edited by Japo32
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The reset trim button does not exist in any of the other helicopters simulated in DCS, it was always a convenience function. Looks like ED forgot to add it this time. 

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Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro

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If you release your joystick back to center and press Trimm hat up momentarily, it does just that, resets trimm to center (unless you have a FFB joy with "no center", I guess?...).
If there is no such button / function like that IRL, why would we need an extra button for that in the sim?
There's no button in the real aircraft to put on your monocle, or your NVS, but yet we have it.

We need something that can center our trim so we can properly transition from forward flight into a hover.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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From what I read on the forum, almost everyone is having problems with the stability of the aircraft. The use of the trim is actually not well illustrated and many are making corrections on the settings (deadzone or curve) of the stick or the rudders. I don't think this is the right way to do it, because everything should be solved with the correct use of the trim. In my opinion, developers should publish specific documentation on how to assign trim controls to the stick and how to actually operate with trim before takeoff and during flight

From the video tutorials it is not clear how to do it.

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It also seemed to me that the ATT and ALT holds either weren’t functioning or had negligible effect.

I’ve been using the FFB trim mode even with a normal stick since I like the single button press. Only issue is when I release my physical stick to center it obvious reads this as a slight movement because my stick isn’t a FFB stick. I still get it trimmed up pretty nice with a few fine tuning trims .

I’ll try the center release option again tonight see if it feels better

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Considering the FFB option is the default special option has everyone changed this for spring sticks. I did with mine and couldn't recentre it again properly. The control options appeared central but it didn't feel at all right. If I never use trim at all I don't find it too difficult to fly but once Ive pressed that button it all changes...


Edited by Hoirtel
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I am glad I am not the only one having a difficult time with this. I was trying to trim like the Huey but was all over the sky, cyclic gone wild. Thanks for the info in this thread guys, it is going to save me.

Ask Jesus for Forgiveness before you takeoff :pilotfly:!

PC=Win 10 HP 64 bit, Gigabyte Z390, Intel I5-9600k, 32 gig ram, Nvidia 2060 Super 8gig video. TM HOTAS WARTHOG with Saitek Pedals

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4 hours ago, Japo32 said:

I Know that there is no reset trim to put into the center position, but I think there should be one added, because in real Apache, we know without moving where the Cyclic and the pedals are, but in non force feedback spring joy-pedals, always they will return to the center, so to "reset" now in the sim, we have to look into them, counter action in joysticks and release the UP Force Trim. Which is not good as we remove the view from outside.

This is one of those situations when perfect simulation is not ok (at least for me)

by the way, ATT hold is not maintained. At least in my case....

 

100% agree with this. there need to be a reset to center option, because non FFB stick user have no way to know where there stick physically is, without looking at the red indicator. In reality, you simply feel where the stick is

4 hours ago, some1 said:

The reset trim button does not exist in any of the other helicopters simulated in DCS, it was always a convenience function. Looks like ED forgot to add it this time. 

wonder how that can pass any beta testing..

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I found a work around that works. I bound the control indicator on my pinky switch, and when I need to transition I can see exactly where it's trimmed and what I need to do to trim it back to center. As soon as that's done, pinky switch to remove the indicator off screen.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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1 hour ago, FZG_Immel said:

wonder how that can pass any beta testing..

TBH I rarely use it myself. I just trim according to the situation. The middle position is not the correct position for hover anyway. 

Hardware: VPForce Rhino, FSSB R3 Ultra, Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Winwing F15EX, Slaw Rudder, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Quest Pro

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Well for now I can't get the trim to do a dang thing for me. I am taking off and just wanting to trim for straight and level flight and nothing I do with the trim seems to work at all. I am sure I am missing something but dang if I know what it is. I have trim right, left, down and up set to buttons on my stick and depress set to release. Nothing seems to work.

Don B

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5 minutes ago, dburne said:

Well for now I can't get the trim to do a dang thing for me. I am taking off and just wanting to trim for straight and level flight and nothing I do with the trim seems to work at all. I am sure I am missing something but dang if I know what it is. I have trim right, left, down and up set to buttons on my stick and depress set to release. Nothing seems to work.

I've just landed from my first fly as pilot in the apache in VR - AWESOME ! I was not ready for this level of awesomness.

I've not touched yet the "special" tab so default trimming, and I just used "Trim up" that act like in the Ka50 : I manover to fly the way I want, 1 tap on trim up and I release controls, the helo is trimmed for cyclic and yaw.

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