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Trim down mode additional options


f1rst

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Hi there. I have just flown the Appache. It's great! But there is a thing that bothers me. When I use trim "D / down" mode(I may be wrong with its name since I've translated the name from russian) it doesn't hold the cyclic as force trim mode does. So I understand that such a behaviour should be with this mode of trimming, but it would be great if you would do such an option in menu that allows the virtual cyclic to stay in that position that I left it after trimming. It would be less realistic but it would be great option for those pilots who have a more or less simple joysticks.

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57 minutes ago, Sydy said:

D/Down just disengages mode AT and Al.

Try using R/Up for that.

R/Up engages the autopilot which I would like it to be turned off. I thought there is a trim mode in Apache like a flight director mode on Ka-50.

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The only "autopilot" modes in the Apache are attitude hold (working) and altitude hold (not yet implemented). The R (release)/up mode is for you to trim the aircraft for stable flight. It has to be re-trimmed anytime there is a change in torque, or if transitioning from flight to hover. As far as an actual autopilot similar to the BS, there isn't one, the Apache is a very hands on helicopter. 

However, theoretically once the altitude hold mode is implemented, you could get a stable hover and engage the attitude and altitude hold modes to get it to sit there like the KA. 


Edited by iceman14555
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23 minutes ago, f1rst said:

R/Up engages the autopilot which I would like it to be turned off. I thought there is a trim mode in Apache like a flight director mode on Ka-50.

I really suggest you re-watch some of Wags' videos. Particularly his last one, answering questions since launch, as he talks about this.

Pressing 'up' is essentially your trim. Press it to centre the in-game stick and rudder in the current position, then return your physical stick and pedals to centre.

I think some people are confused about 'autopilot' in the Apache, in that... there isn't an autopilot. I think a lot of people were expecting to hit a button and the helicopter would fly where they wanted it to go. I'm afraid you're going to have to fly this thing yourself. Personally, I find it better - keeps the brain engaged!

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A small tricks to disable/reset your trim seems to jump into your cpg seat and back again. So click ‘2’ and then ‘1’… 🙂

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1 hour ago, LooseSeal said:

I think some people are confused about 'autopilot' in the Apache, in that... there isn't an autopilot. I think a lot of people were expecting to hit a button and the helicopter would fly where they wanted it to go.

Not an unreasonable assumption, given aircraft far older (like the Hind) have such a feature.  People were expecting a modern attack helicopter to be...well, modern.

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For everybody interested in knowledge how does the stabilization works in real AH-64D i suggest to read the chapter 2.71 and following from the TM 1-1520-251-10 document (Technical Manual for AH-64D).
It's pretty nice reading.

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14 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

Not an unreasonable assumption, given aircraft far older (like the Hind) have such a feature.  People were expecting a modern attack helicopter to be...well, modern.

To be fair, I was expecting a simulation of a modern attack helicopter to have the same features of the modern attack helicopter it’s simulating. 
 

bonus is IT DOES. 
 

So what if it doesn’t have an all singing and dancing autopilot, we are using sims to pretend to fly, so fly the darn thing, rather than just pressing a button and have it done for you.  🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️
 

at end of the day it’s a lot more fun that way.

 

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37 minutes ago, Cowboy10uk said:

bonus is IT DOES

Given the lack of ALT hold and an ATT hold that does its own thing, it doesn't.  At least not yet.

 

37 minutes ago, Cowboy10uk said:

So what if it doesn’t have an all singing and dancing autopilot, we are using sims to pretend to fly, so fly the darn thing, rather than just pressing a button and have it done for you.

That's not the point, but that's going into design decisions by Hughes/Boeing.

 

Speaking as a US Army Black Hawk mechanic, I'm starting to have a better understanding as to why I've heard so many former Apache pilots and mechanics constantly clown the thing.


Edited by agamemnon_b5

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When only so much money is allocated to each airframe in US Army Aviation for upgrades and such every year, there is only so much money to go around. When it comes to the AH-64, that money is almost always put into making the Apache more lethal or survivable, which means sights/sensors, ASE or damage hardening. Things that simply make it easier to fly from point A to B are not a priority like it is for transport helos.

Two decades in Army Aviation I have never once heard an Apache pilot squawk about the lack of a fully-coupled autopilot or a UH-60-style trim hat system. The hold modes are more than enough for the mission of an attack helicopter, and the aircraft is easy and intuitive enough for one person to operate it when the other person is completely heads down in the cockpit for engaging targets and running the fight.


Edited by Raptor9
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16 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

and the aircraft is easy and intuitive enough for one person to operate it

I think it's just a case of different expectations, and I'd approach this from the perspective of the DCS audience. The Apache was always considered to be more advanced than the Ka-50 (and of course it is) so when people learned about how incredibly easy the Shark is to fly and how well the SAS and the hold modes work, people expected the Apache to be just as good in this regard. Since the actual flying aspect of the Apache is by far the most difficult in DCS barring the Gazelle, people are obviously surprised by this. Wags in the past also said that it was very easy to fly, even easier than the Ka-50. I don't know about that, maybe he just doesn't like the smooth and seamless hands off operation of the Shark compared to the very traditional style of the Apache.

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3 hours ago, iceman14555 said:

The only "autopilot" modes in the Apache are attitude hold (working) and altitude hold (not yet implemented). The R (release)/up mode is for you to trim the aircraft for stable flight. It has to be re-trimmed anytime there is a change in torque, or if transitioning from flight to hover. As far as an actual autopilot similar to the BS, there isn't one, the Apache is a very hands on helicopter. 

However, theoretically once the altitude hold mode is implemented, you could get a stable hover and engage the attitude and altitude hold modes to get it to sit there like the KA. 

 

Ok I agree the word "autopilot" doesn't fit this feature that we have after pressing R\Up trim. It enables some kind of stabilization that is good in cruise flying but it's not such good when I'm maneuvering in trees. In that case I prefer better to use D\Down trim mode so it allows me to feel the helicopter better, and it makes the life easier on low alt maneuvering.

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12 minutes ago, f1rst said:

 In that case I prefer better to use D\Down trim mode so it allows me to feel the helicopter better, and it makes the life easier on low alt maneuvering.

The only thing Down does is disable attitude hold if you had enabled that (and eventually altitude hold when that is implemented). Stabilization is the same.

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Just now, Fromthedeep said:

Up trim is the force trim button, not some kind of stabilization. The SCAS is always on during normal operations whether dynamic tactical situations or in cruise.

If the only thing it does is force trim it looks strange then. When I'm not doing trim while the flight parameters are changing (speed, torque, etc.) it's flying straight, but if only I used trim D\Down the helicopter starts rolling or something else. It looks like Mi-24 behavior when I disengaging its autopilot. I also can give as an example the Huey. It has the similar option "force trim" but it feels defenetly like a force trim. None of thoughts are left that Huey has something like stabilization system. But with Apache I have such a feeling.

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16 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

I think it's just a case of different expectations, and I'd approach this from the perspective of the DCS audience.

I was directing my comment at the post from the UH-60 mechanic above mine.
_____________________________________
Having said that, everything about this module is a work-in-progress, and it's been stated multiple times that the SCAS system is very complex and isn't complete. The AH-64 Flight Management Computer's SCAS logic is very complex but it's designed that way to make flying the AH-64 very intuitive with minimal pilot management, while making the aircraft very maneuverable when necessary but also help maintain stability for accurate weapons delivery. An example of the complexity in logic but simplicity in pilot interface is the ATT and ALT hold modes.  Each only has one toggle position. But which sub-mode is entered of either attitude hold or altitude hold is dependent on the flight conditions that exist at the time. The logic is contextual, and (along with the other SCAS functions) is automatically adaptable based on changing flight conditions/values and pilot inputs.

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2 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

I was directing my comment at the post from the UH-60 mechanic above mine.

Sorry, I didn't phrase it well enough (ESL). I understood that you were replying to the comment of the Blackhawk mechanic but I wanted to clarify that my comment approaches the question from the perspective of DCS players.

4 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Having said that, everything about this module is a work-in-progress, and it's been stated multiple times that the SCAS system is very complex and isn't complete.

That's my bad, I assumed that the SCAS implementation and the flight model is more or less complete and the only thing missing is the altitude hold mode. 

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In addition: there is a FMC button that disables autopilot channels in key binding menu. So Apache does have autopilot stabilization system. And after pressing that button Apache behavior becomes the way I want it to be. Helicopter becomes agile and I can use force trim. But this is not a solution because I got FMC error after that and I don't know the way I can enable it again.


Edited by f1rst
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1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

When only so much money is allocated to each airframe in US Army Aviation for upgrades and such every year, there is only so much money to go around. When it comes to the AH-64, that money is almost always put into making the Apache more lethal or survivable, which means sights/sensors, ASE or damage hardening. Things that simply make it easier to fly from point A to B are not a priority like it is for transport helos.

Two decades in Army Aviation I have never once heard an Apache pilot squawk about the lack of a fully-coupled autopilot or a UH-60-style trim hat system. The hold modes are more than enough for the mission of an attack helicopter, and the aircraft is easy and intuitive enough for one person to operate it when the other person is completely heads down in the cockpit for engaging targets and running the fight.

 

Two decades in Army Aviation myself, heard plenty of Apache guys make disparaging remarks about it for all sorts of things.  I remember one Apache guy that seemed surprised the warning systems on the Black Hawk identify the threat targeting you.  When I inquired as to why, he stated the Apache just had a generic symbol that popped up.  This was back in 2009 so I can only assume that has been upgraded.

It can't be "very intuitive  with minimal pilot management" if the pilot has to put in alot of effort just to get the thing to fly in a straight line when landing or taking off.  Especially when compared to far older aircraft that have AFCS.

40 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

The Apache was always considered to be more advanced than the Ka-50 (and of course it is) so when people learned about how incredibly easy the Shark is to fly and how well the SAS and the hold modes work, people expected the Apache to be just as good in this regard.

This.  But that isn't a DCS problem.  They just simulate the airframe and don't add things it never had (rightly so).  People just expect a modern attack helicopter to be modern.  Again, not a DCS problem.  More of a quirk in US military procurement and design decisions.


Edited by agamemnon_b5
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1 minute ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

Two decades in Army Aviation myself, heard plenty of Apache guys make disparaging remarks about it.  I remember one Apache guy that seemed surprised the warning systems on the Black Hawk identify the threat targeting you.  When I inquired as to why, he stated the Apache just had a generic symbol that popped up.

It can't be "very intuitive  with minimal pilot management" if the pilot has to put in alot of effort just to get the thing to fly in a straight line when landing or taking off.  Especially when compared to far older aircraft that have AFCS.

I don't know what threat warning systems have to do with how the Apache flies, but ok, let's avoid having conversations in that particular area since that goes down sensitive rabbit holes.

Aside from any DCS helicopter simulation, the Apache doesn't require "a lot of effort" to fly, it requires someone that knows how to fly a helicopter.  I've had multiple opportunities to fly the UH-60 simulator on multiple occasions.  Aside from the UH-60 mixing in tail rotor inputs automatically because of the offset tail rotor angle, the AH-64 is not any more difficult to fly than the UH-60.  But what do I know? I'm just an AH-64 pilot arguing with a UH-60 mechanic.

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4 hours ago, iceman14555 said:

The only "autopilot" modes in the Apache are attitude hold (working) and altitude hold (not yet implemented). The R (release)/up mode is for you to trim the aircraft for stable flight. It has to be re-trimmed anytime there is a change in torque, or if transitioning from flight to hover. As far as an actual autopilot similar to the BS, there isn't one, the Apache is a very hands on helicopter. 

However, theoretically once the altitude hold mode is implemented, you could get a stable hover and engage the attitude and altitude hold modes to get it to sit there like the KA. 

 

Thanks for these little tidbits of info, I was a bit confused with the autopilot in the Apache. My brain was thinking in terms of the Huey and Hind, but this cleared it up for me. 🤟

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51 minutes ago, f1rst said:

If the only thing it does is force trim it looks strange then. When I'm not doing trim while the flight parameters are changing (speed, torque, etc.) it's flying straight, but if only I used trim D\Down the helicopter starts rolling or something else. It looks like Mi-24 behavior when I disengaging its autopilot. I also can give as an example the Huey. It has the similar option "force trim" but it feels defenetly like a force trim. None of thoughts are left that Huey has something like stabilization system. But with Apache I have such a feeling.

At ground speed > 40kt Heading Hold is supposed to be engaged even with ATT Hold OFF.
It should disengage and go into “turn coordination” mode if you use ruder and should revert to Heading Hold 1s after rudder neutral and yaw rate < 3°.

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@Raptor9

Hi,

I’m trying to understand how the flight control system works IRL and how it compares in DCS World right now.
We don’t have ALT HOLD mode, but I have the impression that ATT HOLD isn’t doing everything it should right now either.

When ATT HOLD is active and you want to change the reference (let’s say doing a turn), do you have to hold FTR and release in the new position or can you just fly though it and it will re-engage once you return controls to neutral/ trimmed position ?

If you can speak about it, how and when do you use the ATT/ ALT HOLD modes IRL ?

Thanks.

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