I Found Apache is Harder to Fly than the Huey

[Wychmaster]

Am 19.3.2022 um 13:09 schrieb evanf117:

like any light and manoverable helo it just takes a bit of getting normalized too

^^^ This

I have flown the Hind, Huey, Ka-50 and the Mi-8 and can now hover all of them almost perfectly. But every time I get into a new bird I have trouble to get into a stable hover. First attempts with the Apache were really embarrassing. Especially when I tried to use the IHADSS symbology. Now, after a bit of practice, I don't have problems anymore. I think you just need to readjust your muscle memory to this new bird

Good luck all to all of you

[doedkoett]

I found it twitchy at first, but a few hours of training has improved my flying quite a bit, and I guess that more training will only improve the situation further. Maybe someday I will even be able to keep it within the bob up box! 
However, I found it a lot more easier to fly than the Huey or the Hind. Landings are almost easy!

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

My issue is at worst when i go from transition to hover, the bird either turns right uncontrollably, or it rolls to one side, and then VBS occurs, especially when the indicated speed < 30. So hover landing is harder for me, but I guess I can try regular plane-like landing instead.

[ddc196]

On 3/23/2022 at 6:04 AM, Wychmaster said:

^^^ This

I have flown the Hind, Huey, Ka-50 and the Mi-8 and can now hover all of them almost perfectly. But every time I get into a new bird I have trouble to get into a stable hover. First attempts with the Apache were really embarrassing. Especially when I tried to use the IHADSS symbology. Now, after a bit of practice, I don't have problems anymore. I think you just need to readjust your muscle memory to this new bird

Good luck all to all of you

What he said.

[Supmua]

6 hours ago, VFGiPJP said:

My issue is at worst when i go from transition to hover, the bird either turns right uncontrollably, or it rolls to one side, and then VBS occurs, especially when the indicated speed < 30. So hover landing is harder for me, but I guess I can try regular plane-like landing instead.

Hovering skill is vital with the Apache though since attacking while hovering at the distance plays a big part of the game.

What I did that seems to work for me is.

1. put more curves on stick if you are not stable.

2. maintain tight collective control, don't let the FPM go too high or too low especially at low speed.

3. at low speed the aircraft will spin right more and need more countering force from the left pedal.  Also increasing collective will spin the aircraft more to the right (more rotor torque) and lowering collective will spin left.

4. observe the IHADSS symbols.  To get to hovering, pull the circle back (stick control left right) to merge with the crosshair in horizontal plane, and chase the circle with the crosshair (up and down) in vertical plane.  Make a small correction at a time, sort of like midair refuel.

This might also help.  

 

[Caldera]

Hey All,

I find it easier to fly than the Huey, especially concerning VRS.  By comparison the Apache is a saint and the Huey is a devil.

But I do have a question about a certain flight characteristic I have noticed.  This thing wants to and often does an immediate departure from normal flight.  What I mean is that it can do the fastest snap roll of any aircraft that I ever had the pleasure to simulated fly in.

Is that actually realistic?

It is also one tough MoFo as it has the ability to fall what seems like forever, bounce on its wheels like a cat, and keep right on going.  That is a pro, not a con.

Below is a picture of me mowing the grass for free.  The engines where still on, the main rotor was spinning in the green(although the blades where much shorter), the tail rotor was balanced safely above the turf and I was perfectly perched on the mast spindle.  I guess... 

Don't try this at home boys and girls.

Caldera

[Niehorst]

It can't be stressed enough:

You want to have a long extension on you cyclic. If you're doing without any, forget it!

Think about it: The flight model wants to be as realistic as possible. The real thing does not have a F-16 like grip without any extension.

Curves will help, but it will never give you the precise control over the aircraft. (Over compensation leading to oscillations especially in pitch are the typical problem)

Pedals that don't need to be trimmed (using the TPR's + damper mod without springs) help A LOT!

By know the Apache does exactly what I want. Hovering and precise landings are an absolute joy to do 

If you struggle to refuel your Hornet or Tomcat in the air, or catch the wire you want, an extension will do the job too. Don't blame me for your later alcoholism. You'll be hanging out at the bar the whole day!!!

For Jets I would reccommend 10 -20cm (depending on the aircraft) - You wont't need a curve anymore -> absolute linear control in pitch and roll!

In Helos I use about 32cm (15 straight + VPC curved extension) Still experimenting with curves. Startet with 20, now at 15. Think I can go down to 10.

You should always trim a lot for a smooth flight. But with a setup like that you don't have to trim every cyclic change and it is still smooth. To hold the stick in the exact position needs much less force and is so much more precise. Took me years of flying since LOMAC to realize this!

 

It is absolutely amazing to throw the Apache through the street canyons of Dubai! You can take a crossing in fast flight, NOE, I mean at lantern post level, in the very last second! -...And you can't believe you made it like a Boss! 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Niehorst

[Eldur]

Bruh, recommending curves, especially since that breaks the trim on real sticks

On 3/19/2022 at 1:09 PM, evanf117 said:

like any light and manoverable helo it just takes a bit of getting normalized too

Exactly... though I'd like more throw

On 3/19/2022 at 2:32 PM, FZG_Immel said:

Since we don’t have a magnetic force stick that stops in the position when you force trim, we really need a reset to physical zero trim. 

MS SW FFB2 entered the chat.

I also have to get used to the different thing that the 64 is, but I wouldn't say it's harder than the Huey. It's rather easier thanks to the IHADSS. Though I might have another hint: Try flying without. Once you get the hang of it, use it - but learn not to concentrate on it only.

[RealDCSpilot]

As long as ALT hold mode is not implemented, i would say how the FCS works isn't finished anyway. We have to re-evaluate the handling again at a later point...

[yuck32]

For me is harder to fly than the hind. I never touched axis curves... (neither for the hind) Until apache came.

hind "FCS" feel much better.

I a little regret buying it... there are missions in which I have no problem finishing them with the hind, while with the apache they are almost impossible for me.

I can beat SAM groups in a blink with the hind while with apache I have to reduce their interception range by 40%

A lot of fancy systems for nothing... The beauty of the possibilty to create a TSD point while a tor is shooting you down. At least is fun to operate in gunner position. But its absurd that I have to make easier missions for a more capable helicopter

 

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by yuck32

[Floyd1212]

On 3/25/2022 at 3:58 AM, Niehorst said:

It is absolutely amazing to throw the Apache through the street canyons of Dubai! You can take a crossing in fast flight, NOE, I mean at lantern post level, in the very last second!

Tracks, or it didn't happen...

[S. Low]

On 3/25/2022 at 12:25 AM, Caldera said:

Hey All,

I find it easier to fly than the Huey, especially concerning VRS.  By comparison the Apache is a saint and the Huey is a devil.

But I do have a question about a certain flight characteristic I have noticed.  This thing wants to and often does an immediate departure from normal flight.  What I mean is that it can do the fastest snap roll of any aircraft that I ever had the pleasure to simulated fly in.

Is that actually realistic?

It is also one tough MoFo as it has the ability to fall what seems like forever, bounce on its wheels like a cat, and keep right on going.  That is a pro, not a con.

Below is a picture of me mowing the grass for free.  The engines where still on, the main rotor was spinning in the green(although the blades where much shorter), the tail rotor was balanced safely above the turf and I was perfectly perched on the mast spindle.  I guess... 

Don't try this at home boys and girls.

Caldera

It’s EA WIP. Let’s worry about Ed improving normal flight characteristics before jumping into the “it flies upside down” complaints

[Sacarino111]

HI.

To me , besides the curves and trim options, the trick to hover is to grab the stick with the fingertips, 3, 4 fingers maximum. I found that the finger mouvements are way more precise and exercice less force, so I don't do so much over controlled inputs. 

What I hate the most is the collective, as keeping the altitude require so minimal inputs that it is sometimes ridicule;  a very slight tap on it to descend or to climb, really gentle did the trick. any other way of controlling it have me bouncing up and down.

And some left pedal anticipation when transitioning to hover/slow flight is mandatory, or you will find yourself spining to the right!

Saludos.

Saca111

[Rogue Trooper]

The Apache hovers beautifully.

As mentioned above check if any game modes are enabled.

I think it depends on what you are using for a reference, in the Huey and like most other choppers in DCS you would use a ground reference to hover, It is easy then.

You fix your view on something distant or close and use that as a reference point for maintaining a hover.

In the Apache you also have to learn to look through the symbology on the IHADDS, the symbology creates confusion. The symbology is an aid... not the truth!

The Hover symbology especially, is far too accurate or sensitive for most users to learn chopper hovering.... I find it difficult to use the hover mode IHADDS setting as I end up chasing my own tail trying to seek some mathematical perfection... in reality a little drift is just fine for prosecution of multiple targets.

Instead, use the transition IHADDS mode to hold a hover whilst looking through the symbology to a fixed tree or structure to hover behind. The transition mode is crude for holding a hover but far more forgiving and will better serve most operators. A little drift here or there will still get 16 Hellfires on target whilst your airframe is deep in amongst trees.   

Remember.... the yanks spent a lot of money on this targeting suite, once the Hellfire is off the rails, do not worry about any yaw drift or where the nose is pointing.... leave the work to George.... no or little smooth pedal work as that slow old Hellfire makes its way to the target.... we do not want to make George's work harder.

As a pilot concentrate on your height, loosing weight always means gaining height!

Also be vigilante that loosing the weight of one missile off one wing will roll the airframe to the heavier side and ultimately increase drift to the heavier side.... fabulous module!

Truly fabulous!

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Rogue Trooper

[admiki]

I totally agree with Trooper. Remove IHADSS completely, put flight screen on one of the MPD's and practice.

OTOH, bob-up symbology is a huge aid once you learn not to chase it to a milimeter precision.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

On 3/25/2022 at 12:25 PM, Caldera said:

This thing wants to and often does an immediate departure from normal flight.  What I mean is that it can do the fastest snap roll of any aircraft that I ever had the pleasure to simulated fly in.

Is that actually realistic?

Yeah the sudden snap roll is weird. Plus side of it happening is it will always roll 360 fast. Hopefully this isn't realistic. Also, whenever the flight characteristics get a little 'crazy' it feels like a swinging pendulum. Can't wait for a major update.

[EagleEye.DCS]

Basicly, You can't compare those two heli. Because the two have different flying characters.

[pii]

On 4/19/2022 at 12:18 PM, Sacarino111 said:

HI.

To me , besides the curves and trim options, the trick to hover is to grab the stick with the fingertips, 3, 4 fingers maximum. I found that the finger mouvements are way more precise and exercice less force, so I don't do so much over controlled inputs. 

What I hate the most is the collective, as keeping the altitude require so minimal inputs that it is sometimes ridicule;  a very slight tap on it to descend or to climb, really gentle did the trick. any other way of controlling it have me bouncing up and down.

And some left pedal anticipation when transitioning to hover/slow flight is mandatory, or you will find yourself spining to the right!

Saludos.

Saca111

I'm having trouble with the sensitivity of my Peddles should I use two or three toes

[Sacarino111]

18 hours ago, pii said:

I'm having trouble with the sensitivity of my Peddles should I use two or three toes

Hi.

Nope, just the toe. Not kidding, for small adjustements, I use just the toe; It is so sensitive I find myself yawing left/right (kind of PIO) if I applie force with the hole foot, so yes, two ro three fingers on my feet...

Saludos.

Saca111

[pii]

On 3/25/2022 at 3:58 AM, Niehorst said:

 

You want to have a long extension on you cyclic. If you're doing without any, forget it!

I don't have one (yet) but I'm doing quite well. More or less  

[RackMonkey]

Lets quit making excuses, it doesn't fly like the real bird! The real bird doesn't have "curves" and this thing acts WAY to twitchy and underpowered as DCS put it out. Actual flying should be second nature to a combat pilot but with this bird you have to concentrate %100 to bring it into a hover or keeping the nose point in the right direction. Forget about what your CPG needs to get a firing solution. Your to busy just keeping the bird from drifting into what ever your hiding behind. That is assuming you can get it to hover with out "settling with power".

If the real thing flew like DCS's model and I was assigned the Apache coming out of UPT I would ask for transfer. 

[Mr_sukebe]

40 minutes ago, RackMonkey said:

Lets quit making excuses, it doesn't fly like the real bird! The real bird doesn't have "curves" and this thing acts WAY to twitchy and underpowered as DCS put it out. Actual flying should be second nature to a combat pilot but with this bird you have to concentrate %100 to bring it into a hover or keeping the nose point in the right direction. Forget about what your CPG needs to get a firing solution. Your to busy just keeping the bird from drifting into what ever your hiding behind. That is assuming you can get it to hover with out "settling with power".

If the real thing flew like DCS's model and I was assigned the Apache coming out of UPT I would ask for transfer. 

 

Interesting.  When did you last fly an Apache?

[RackMonkey]

2 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

 

Interesting.  When did you last fly an Apache?

You know I haven't flown an Apache, but I do have 15K fixed wing in my log books and if I had a much trouble keeping the plane upright as this version of the Apache does, I would never be able to fly a visual let alone an ILS approach. I'd have to use all my concentration just keeping it upright.

When I see an unbiased critical review of the flight characteristics of the Apache from a real pilot I'll with draw my comments. 

Curves should only be used to make adjustment for different control systems and not as a fix for poor flight characteristics programming.

[Kharrn]

I found the Apache is harder to fly then driving my car!

I have more then 1500 days! of driving under my belt and more then 200.000km traveled. I think a 4 wheeled front drivetrain 220hp car can be very well compared to a helicopter like the Apache. I mean its all just chemistry isnt it!? or was it geometry? whatever... 

And now i will just go out and buy the next car prototype which is under development, just to complain that it is not driving streight.... wheels are fitted last.

Ah humanity. Worst invention since the big bang. 

 

BTT: tbh, i got my head around the Huey flight system faster then on the Apache. But there was a lot of crashing involved, especially with landings.

IMHO those two helicopters are hardly comparable.

Flying without IHADSS and with a light load (no weapons) helped a lot to practice, which has been stated in this topic already.

Practice practice practice. Collective sensitivity is key. Know what to expect from the aircraft to get "ahead" of it and not reacting on it. 

Now i can barrel roll and transition with ease (most times).

Last thing: eaaaaarly accesssssss

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Kharrn

[Mr_sukebe]

I did think that we had 2 ex Apache pilots (Casmo being one of them), who've already passed comment on the flight dynamics.