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How to defeat ACE AI JF-17?『guns only 』


YenLin801215

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I know the F-16 is two circle fighter.And I can defeat the Veteran AI JF-17.

But when change the AI skill to the ACE.It becomes a completely different story.

The energy of the JF-17 recovers so quickly.It's like he has endless energy.

Not to mention its performance at low speed…

Are there any better skills or tactics to deal with it?

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2 hours ago, YenLin801215 said:

I know the F-16 is two circle fighter.And I can defeat the Veteran AI JF-17.

But when change the AI skill to the ACE.It becomes a completely different story.

The energy of the JF-17 recovers so quickly.It's like he has endless energy.

Not to mention its performance at low speed…

Are there any better skills or tactics to deal with it?

1. Did you remove wing pylons manually?

2. Did you do the 2C fight above 10000 feet as suggested earlier?


Edited by karasawa
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The JF-17 is able to sustain energy even better than the adjusted FM for the viper. No talking about AI.

Fly the Quick Start JF-17 CAC mission. That pits you against a ACE M2000 AI. With the JF I can eventually get behind its back. When I open the mission in the editor and replace the player craft with F-16, and fight against the same Mirage, I get shot down so fast and so often, it's not even funny. The Mirage AI FM is a real UFO FM.

But, that shows that the F-16 is not able to sustain energy as well as the JF-17.

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Yeah, a clean JF-17 flown by a competent pilot is a BFM monster. I don't think anyone (who can talk about it) has seen a JF-17 EM diagram, but in DCS it has better rate and radius ability than the new F-16 flight model. That doesn't make sense to me based on thrust to weight ratio alone (we should be able to beat it down on energy after a few lead turns, but we can't.)

Good news is that the Jeff doesn't have HOBS.... So shoot him early and often with a 9X.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

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33 minutes ago, TheBigTatanka said:

Yeah, a clean JF-17 flown by a competent pilot is a BFM monster. I don't think anyone (who can talk about it) has seen a JF-17 EM diagram, but in DCS it has better rate and radius ability than the new F-16 flight model. That doesn't make sense to me based on thrust to weight ratio alone (we should be able to beat it down on energy after a few lead turns, but we can't.)

Good news is that the Jeff doesn't have HOBS.... So shoot him early and often with a 9X.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

The Jeff may have an edge at lower altitudes but you can beat it at heights, or use the vertical.

I don’t think the thrust profile of DCS JF-17 is in any way exaggerated, you can tell by its performance in the vertical.

The CL-alpha slope is roughly on par with the viper, while the CD0 is a little higher, being at around 0.025 with subsonic speeds. The wing area is slight smaller than that of the Viper. But if you sum it up all together, being a light weight fighter, it can still fly and fight at a lower AOA since less lift is required to compensate for the weight * Nz.

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2022/3/19 PM12点59分,LJQCN101说:

The Jeff may have an edge at lower altitudes but you can beat it at heights, or use the vertical.

I don’t think the thrust profile of DCS JF-17 is in any way exaggerated, you can tell by its performance in the vertical.

The CL-alpha slope is roughly on par with the viper, while the CD0 is a little higher, being at around 0.025 with subsonic speeds. The wing area is slight smaller than that of the Viper. But if you sum it up all together, being a light weight fighter, it can still fly and fight at a lower AOA since less lift is required to compensate for the weight * Nz.

As a person who collaborated with Deka Ironworks Simulation (DIS), I am pretty sure DIS over-performed JF-17 deliberately. China's official data (Chengfei) indicates the JF-17 a mediocre turn fighter with a STR of 18 deg/sec (I cannot post it here due to rule 1.16 but if ED contacts me I will show the proof). This number is in line with airshow demo if you use a stop watch to time its 360 turn, which is much longer than that of a Viper. DIS boosted it to 20+deg/sec. One of DIS employees told me that it is done deliberately by reducing trim drag and induced drag. 

Also DIS exaggerated the performance of SD-10 to give it UFO-like maneuverability, and refuses to fix it. Enraged by its behavior, ED revoked some access of 3rd party devs and forces using official API for development. 


Edited by jianduankejiCN
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22 minutes ago, jianduankejiCN said:

As a person who collaborated with Deka Ironworks Simulation (DIS), I am pretty sure DIS over-performed JF-17 deliberately. China's official data (Chengfei) indicates the JF-17 a mediocre turn fighter with a STR of 18 deg/sec (I cannot post it here due to rule 1.16 but if ED contacts me I will show the proof). This number is in line with airshow demo if you use a stop watch to time its 360 turn, which is much longer than that of a Viper. DIS boosted it to 20+deg/sec. One of DIS employees told me that it is done deliberately by reducing trim drag and induced drag. 

Also DIS exaggerated the performance of SD-10 to give it UFO-like maneuverability, and refuses to fix it. Enraged by its behavior, ED revoked some access of 3rd party devs and forces using official API for development. 

 

If you think you have the proof, you can directly show to DIS. As far as I know we haven't collaborated with anyone.

Regarding trim drag and induced drag, we use official drag coefficients w.r.t alpha, beta, etc. and it's not any less than a Viper, no need to exaggerate anything. This sounds like more of a troll.


Edited by LJQCN101

EFM / FCS developer, Deka Ironwork Simulations.

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On 3/20/2022 at 12:12 AM, TheBigTatanka said:

Yeah, a clean JF-17 flown by a competent pilot is a BFM monster. I don't think anyone (who can talk about it) has seen a JF-17 EM diagram, but in DCS it has better rate and radius ability than the new F-16 flight model. That doesn't make sense to me based on thrust to weight ratio alone (we should be able to beat it down on energy after a few lead turns, but we can't.)

Good news is that the Jeff doesn't have HOBS.... So shoot him early and often with a 9X.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

Yep, doesn't make sense to me neither. Keep in mind tho, JF is a Chinese designed jet and its module in DCS is made by a Chinese 3rd pary developer. Just saying. 😛

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25 minutes ago, LJQCN101 said:

If you think you have the proof, you can directly show to DIS. As far as I know we haven't collaborated with anyone.

Regarding trim drag and induced drag, we use official drag coefficients w.r.t alpha, beta, etc. and it's not any less than a Viper, no need to exaggerate anything. This sounds like more of a troll.

 

Immediately calling the other person a troll.... Why so defensive 😘

8 minutes ago, LJQCN101 said:

Just saying, why would someone make a plane that overperforms in a game, is that any fun?

IDK. Look at all the other games. A game originally made by Russians, for example. 

42 minutes ago, jianduankejiCN said:

As a person who collaborated with Deka Ironworks Simulation (DIS), I am pretty sure DIS over-performed JF-17 deliberately. China's official data (Chengfei) indicates the JF-17 a mediocre turn fighter with a STR of 18 deg/sec (I cannot post it here due to rule 1.16 but if ED contacts me I will show the proof). This number is in line with airshow demo if you use a stop watch to time its 360 turn, which is much longer than that of a Viper. DIS boosted it to 20+deg/sec. One of DIS employees told me that it is done deliberately by reducing trim drag and induced drag. 

Also DIS exaggerated the performance of SD-10 to give it UFO-like maneuverability, and refuses to fix it. Enraged by its behavior, ED revoked some access of 3rd party devs and forces using official API for development. 

 

This is gold 


Edited by SCPanda
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Really, if the proof show that the JF-17 is overperforming, I'd love to make an adjustment more than anyone.

I'm just a coder anyways and the only thing I do is to stick to the graph etc.


Edited by LJQCN101
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EFM / FCS developer, Deka Ironwork Simulations.

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2 hours ago, jianduankejiCN said:

As a person who collaborated with Deka Ironworks Simulation (DIS)

Also DIS exaggerated the performance of SD-10 to give it UFO-like maneuverability, and refuses to fix it. Enraged by its behavior, ED revoked some access of 3rd party devs and forces using official API for development. 

 

definitely false information.

btw, could you tell who has you collaborated with from Deka and what have you done?

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7小时前,uboats说:

definitely false information.

btw, could you tell who has you collaborated with from Deka and what have you done?

You know private identity should be protected. However what you quoted was how DIS enraged ED and got lots of access revoked. Anyone in DIS knows how that happened. Just ask them.


Edited by jianduankejiCN
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Oh god this is so good! Is the Ace Ai Jeff unbeatable? Are DIC Chinese government shills? Is there proof🙀!... So living in a rural area and having been subjected to the purgatory of endless vertical loops I got excited when I read this and decided to put the unbeatable Ace JF-17 to the test. So with my newly more accurized all American Viper I claimed into the virtual sky to meet the unbeatable commie basterd Ace named Jeff. The canyons of Nevada rored with our dule. At first he seemed truly unbeatable. As I pulled 7.5G at 420 IAS I watched in horror as he slowly crpet to my six. And at the last when all hope was lost I remembered, this is a guns only fight and I have the highest thrust to weight ratio in game. I jinked it the vertical and pulled a double emblem. And then I saw it. My nimis platform directly in my gun cross. So then I did it again.

The Ace Jeff is fucking tough, and that's a good thing. You should not be putting down Ace level Ai. At least not easily. He can definitely rate with the Viper, although as the fuel burns off the scales seem to tip back to the Viper. But the vertical is all Viper. The Ai Jeff just doesn't have the power to keep up. Now as for the Ai behavior, <profanity> yeah that's what I'm talking about. It actually fights you. Fox two fights are point and shoot affairs. It seems the PL5 has got a bit of an upgrade. I saw it pull 22G in tackview. But that seems like where it should be. Aim-9X is a definite advantage.

Is the Jeff accurate. God I hope so. This whole discussion highlights the biggest problem I have with these 21st century fighters. There just isn't enough data for us to know for sure. Go look at the Tomcat FM thread. Their discussing a .4 degree turn rate inaccuracie. We just can't do that with these jets. Do I believe that the IRL Jeff could be this good? I see no reason it shouldn't be. They had F-16's to work with, and it was built to be on par with the Viper. 


Edited by FlankerKiller
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3 hours ago, jianduankejiCN said:

You know private identity should be protected. However what you quoted was how DIS enraged ED and got lots of access revoked. Anyone in DIS knows how that happened. Just ask them.

 

Forum aliases aren't protected, and you're quoting a DIS Dev who just said you're wrong, and he doesn't know you. 

I think your story is falling apart, friend. 

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16分钟前,Foogle说:

Forum aliases aren't protected, and you're quoting a DIS Dev who just said you're wrong, and he doesn't know you. 

I think your story is falling apart, friend. 

Haha of course DIS member will deny this. Have you seen a defendant act as his own attorney?  

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22 minutes ago, jianduankejiCN said:

Haha of course DIS member will deny this. Have you seen a defendant act as his own attorney?  

please just tell us whom from deka you have collaborated with. that's quite simple question

now you accuse us denying collaboration with you. just show us evidence, or you are slandering!


Edited by uboats

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53 minutes ago, jianduankejiCN said:

Haha of course DIS member will deny this. Have you seen a defendant act as his own attorney?  

You're the only one attributing malice to any of this. 

 

If you have the information to fix this issue, then you have two Devs in this thread ready to work with you.

 

Why won't you tell them who you collaborated with? Or properly direct them to your source of info so they can fix it? 

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1 hour ago, jianduankejiCN said:

In order to obey rule 1.16, I will not post that source here. A 3rd party that got its access revoked is not worth the risk to get my account banned.

if as you said, you'd collaborated with deka. then there should be many many chat/discussion with real deka dev besides "source".

please show us the evidence (screenshot of chat/discussion) of your chat/discussion with real deka dev and mosaic the "source".

or this eyeball maneuver measurement is your source?

image.png

image.png


Edited by uboats

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If you think something's wrong, bring a track and the proof via private message or anything of your choice, and then the FM review process can continue. If you don't trust us, you can PM ED staff or community manager directly, i.e. Yo-Yo or Groove, .BIGNEWY or NineLine. I don't think anyone is suggesting that you should break the 1.16.

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