How to defeat ACE AI JF-17?『guns only 』

[noobplayer]

It is very easy to out-rate the JF17 and the F/A18 with this little trick.

[IcedVenom]

You don't

JF-17 is a beast and well designed with F-16 designed aspects in-mind. I'm sorry to say that you just can't beat it.

[noobplayer]

2分钟前，IcedVenom说：

You don't

JF-17 is a beast and well designed with F-16 designed aspects in-mind. I'm sorry to say that you just can't beat it.

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by noobplayer

[IcedVenom]

On 3/20/2022 at 7:32 PM, jianduankejiCN said:

As a person who collaborated with Deka Ironworks Simulation (DIS), I am pretty sure DIS over-performed JF-17 deliberately. China's official data (Chengfei) indicates the JF-17 a mediocre turn fighter with a STR of 18 deg/sec (I cannot post it here due to rule 1.16 but if ED contacts me I will show the proof). This number is in line with airshow demo if you use a stop watch to time its 360 turn, which is much longer than that of a Viper. DIS boosted it to 20+deg/sec. One of DIS employees told me that it is done deliberately by reducing trim drag and induced drag. 

Also DIS exaggerated the performance of SD-10 to give it UFO-like maneuverability, and refuses to fix it. Enraged by its behavior, ED revoked some access of 3rd party devs and forces using official API for development. 

 

That's actually copium. Please stop manufacturing fake news about flight models and capabilities about planes you know nothing about.

1 minute ago, noobplayer said:

 

I thought this was an AI player. I think it does out-perform it at high altitudes but at lower altitudes or if it jams the WEZ then JF-17/FC-1 out performs it in the BFM. Usually things aren't just 1v1 though so I think in a 2v2 or 3v3 or whatever things are more complicated and tactics-based. Take back what I said about you can't beat it, you're just gonna need a LOT of luck.

Edited March 24, 2022 by IcedVenom

[noobplayer]

Isn't the title of this thread how to defeat ace AI?

Edited March 24, 2022 by noobplayer

[IcedVenom]

Just now, noobplayer said:

Isn't the title of this thread how to defeat ace AI?

 

Oh, it is AI? Then yeah sure at high-altitudes for sure. In multiplayer servers I fly FC-1/JF-17 and I usually win more often than I lose BFM engagements. 

[jianduankejiCN]

You want proof? Then I give you the proof.

Look at the source, Chengfei, the manufacture of FC-1 (JF-17), STR = 18deg/s

----

Deleted the file due to rule 1.16. However I believe lots of users have saved it.

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by jianduankejiCN

[TheBigTatanka]

That's a little hard to believe. Clean Jeff's at airshows are doing around 13 deg/sec in their max performance turns, and other public sources say best sustained is 14 deg/sec. But, in DCS they are sustaining around 20 deg/sec with 2 missiles and light fuel.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[LJQCN101]

Now we're seeing some figures. In order for the fix to be efficiently pinpointed and pushed, please kindly provide the following conditions:

1. payload

2. Gross Weight or fuel weight

3. Thrust setting and Engine Mode (training, training-combat, combat)

4. deviation from the US Standard Atmosphere 1976

5. Altitude

6. Mach number at which the STR is obtained

 

If you're using airshow video materials, the following additional data is required:

7. Airspeed gain/loss

8. Altitude gain/loss

9. Evidence that the video is not edited

 

Then we can properly check them against our EM diagram, thanks.

[TheBigTatanka]

Now we're seeing some figures. In order for the fix to be efficiently pinpointed and pushed, please kindly provide the following conditions:
1. payload
2. Gross Weight or fuel weight
3. Thrust setting and Engine Mode (training, training-combat, combat)
4. deviation from the US Standard Atmosphere 1976
5. Altitude
6. Mach number at which the STR is obtained
 
If you're using airshow video materials, the following additional data is required:
7. Airspeed gain/loss
8. Altitude gain/loss
9. Evidence that the video is not edited
 
Then we can properly check them against our EM diagram, thanks.

I'll get right on that, lol.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[jojojung]

vor 48 Minuten schrieb LJQCN101:

Now we're seeing some figures. In order for the fix to be efficiently pinpointed and pushed, please kindly provide the following conditions:

1. payload

2. Gross Weight or fuel weight

3. Thrust setting and Engine Mode (training, training-combat, combat)

4. deviation from the US Standard Atmosphere 1976

5. Altitude

6. Mach number at which the STR is obtained

 

If you're using airshow video materials, the following additional data is required:

7. Airspeed gain/loss

8. Altitude gain/loss

9. Evidence that the video is not edited

 

Then we can properly check them against our EM diagram, thanks.

I'm not a Jeff Pilot in DCS but I have to make a big compliment to the Devs of the Jeff. They are willing to review things in a serios way with the community.
Also I'm not the best Dogfighter but I tried fighting guns only with no pylons against a JF AI Ace with no pylons and I was able to outrate her near ground without any flaps.
Just be patient and stay at corner speed ~450kt. Dont pull to much! At some point you will see that the Viper does a hugh step forward in full AB and will accelerate and I have to go to mil power to stay in the corner speed and not above. 
For me the Viper does the thing right and is fairly accurate with the public charts. Thanks ED for the great work! 

[uboats]

4 hours ago, jianduankejiCN said:

You want proof? Then I give you the proof.

Look at the source, Chengfei, the manufacture of FC-1 (JF-17), STR = 18deg/s

----

Deleted the file due to rule 1.16. However I believe lots of users have saved it.

 

 

didn't see the file. or you can post the proof on tieba or pan.baidu which has no rule 1.16

[LordOrion]

On 3/19/2022 at 2:40 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

Ace-level AI outright cheats, as opposed to making it think better. I hope ED can address that when they rework the AI FM.

AI "cheats" at all levels, not only at Ace.

It has an almost perfect SA and it is not subject to the same physics laws as human players.

[jianduankejiCN]

OK this answers to your question. Click the image to zoom in.

Source: Chengfei (manufacture of JF-17)
combat weight: 7999kg
Sustained turn rate: 18deg/sec
Instantaneous turn rate: 28deg/sec
The only thing you could argue is the difference between block I and block II. However the changes in LEX shape only affect lift at high AOA, while the STR is achieved at low to medium AOA. There is no way the new LERX could increase the STR by 2deg/sec.

In terms of the atmosphere condition, is there a severe difference between China's atmosphere and US atmosphere?

------------

Image deleted due to rule 1.16. However I believe lots of you have save it.
 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by jianduankejiCN

[uboats]

14 minutes ago, jianduankejiCN said:

OK this answers to your question. Click the image to zoom in.

Source: Chengfei (manufacture of JF-17)
combat weight: 7999kg
STR: 18deg/sec
ITR: 28deg/sec
The only thing you could argue is the difference between block I and block II. However the changes in LEX shape only affect lift at high AOA, while the STR is achieved at low to medium AOA. There is no way the new LERX could increase the STR by 2deg/sec.

In terms of the atmosphere condition, is there a severe difference between China's atmosphere and US atmosphere?
 

 

 

image broken

no one can immediately trace your post

so it's better to open a new topic on tieba and post your image there, and you don't need to worry about rule 1.16

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by uboats

[jianduankejiCN]

Regarding how DIS trolled on SD-10's performance, enraged ED, and DIS got its access revoked, and is forced to use official API, this has gone viral on China's flight sim fanbase. Consider yourself lucky that not all users here speak Chinese.  

[uboats]

3 minutes ago, jianduankejiCN said:

Regarding how DIS trolled on SD-10's performance, enraged ED, and DIS got its access revoked, and is forced to use official API, this has gone viral on China's flight sim fanbase. Consider yourself lucky that not all users here speak Chinese.  

this is not excuse at all, if your proof is true, then I believe Chinese players will agree with you

or if you like, you can post it on reddit

3 minutes ago, jianduankejiCN said:

Regarding how DIS trolled on SD-10's performance, enraged ED, and DIS got its access revoked, and is forced to use official API, this has gone viral on China's flight sim fanbase. Consider yourself lucky that not all users here speak Chinese.  

trolled on SD10 perf and enraged ED? LMAO

again, ED never force DIS to use official API, you are actually slandering

Edited March 24, 2022 by uboats

[SCPanda]

4 hours ago, uboats said:

so it's better to open a new topic on tieba and post your image there, and you don't need to worry about rule 1.16

Why tieba? It's Chinese isn't it? Let's keep the discussion here or at least in English so people can read. 

If you all worry about rules, you can discuss this topic in reddit/hoggit. https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/

@jianduankejiCN

Edited March 25, 2022 by SCPanda

[uboats]

11 minutes ago, SCPanda said:

Why tieba? It's Chinese isn't it? Let's keep the discussion here or at least in English so people can read. 

If you all worry about rules, you can discuss this topic in reddit/hoggit. https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/

@jianduankejiCN

 

as i said in my last comment, either tieba or reddit is fine, so i don't know why he didn't want to post there.

link to discuss on external site doesn't break the rule.

i also don't know who has seen his proof here, he just quickly deleted it each time.

 

[LJQCN101]

5 hours ago, jianduankejiCN said:

OK this answers to your question. Click the image to zoom in.

Source: Chengfei (manufacture of JF-17)
combat weight: 7999kg
Sustained turn rate: 18deg/sec
Instantaneous turn rate: 28deg/sec
The only thing you could argue is the difference between block I and block II. However the changes in LEX shape only affect lift at high AOA, while the STR is achieved at low to medium AOA. There is no way the new LERX could increase the STR by 2deg/sec.

In terms of the atmosphere condition, is there a severe difference between China's atmosphere and US atmosphere?

------------

Image deleted due to rule 1.16. However I believe lots of you have save it.
 

 

 

Now that we have a GW, but we still don't know the altitude and Engine Mode the flight test was based on.

Regarding atmosphere conditions, an increase in temperature of 10 degrees for example would reduce the turn rate by 1-2 deg/s, dependant on airspeed and altitude.

And for the LERX, the major difference was made since prototype No.04 and there's no difference between block I and block II. The effect is not only on lift coefficients (CL) but also on pitching moment coefficients (Cm), which greatly reduces trim drag in a maneuvering flight.

 

[Torbernite]

I'm here to show my sympathy at the risk of breaking rules, both to DIS for that their should be allowed to focus on their work, instead of answering these groundless accuse and slander, and to jianduankejiCN for his delusion that himself is representing all Chinese fans. I see absolutely no strong accuse on DIS with my eyes in Chinese fan group, except for some unreasonable allege like his words, just supposing JF could never be as powerful as it is at the very first, daydreaming for all the black box operation in their fantasy, ignoring any analyzing and living in their own anti-DIS world.

[skywalker22]

Almost simple, ace level (1st was was also interesting, but then I lost it, and reacquired it again from here on): 

 

[skywalker22]

JF-17 is the best AI oponent in dogfight among all other aircrafts for me (didn`t try F-22 yet, but I will).

PS: F-22 is a crap AI, confirmed. 

JF-17 ACE is like you would fly and fight against human being. Does so many different things thats it almost unreal. But beatable, you just have to be patient and try to force your own game, else you are history.

Edited March 27, 2022 by skywalker22

[AeriaGloria]

On 3/19/2022 at 9:12 AM, TheBigTatanka said:

Yeah, a clean JF-17 flown by a competent pilot is a BFM monster. I don't think anyone (who can talk about it) has seen a JF-17 EM diagram, but in DCS it has better rate and radius ability than the new F-16 flight model. That doesn't make sense to me based on thrust to weight ratio alone (we should be able to beat it down on energy after a few lead turns, but we can't.)

Good news is that the Jeff doesn't have HOBS.... So shoot him early and often with a 9X.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

Thrust to weight ratio is not everything. In a rate fight, the BIGGEST factor is thrust to DRAG ratio. That is not something as easily quantified with a single number using an uninstalled engine like thrust to weight ratio