Yannick Pancake Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) While I was reading through some websites of the F-4 Phantom it was mentioned on a scale moddeling website that the german F-4F had a measure to prevent the very dark exhaust gasses. It was stated thath they increased the temperature within the engine. But this had a negative impact on engine lifetime, so there was a switch installed on the engine to switch between both operating modes. Higher temperatures for wartime, lower temperatures for peacetime. I was wondering if that's a thing on later E models as well. If it was, I think it could be cool if it get its way into our F-4 as well. Edited March 20, 2022 by Yannick Pancake Yannick "Pancake" CO VF-14 - vCVW Two PILOT [pahy-luh t] - noun 1. A person who does precision gueswork based on unreliable data provided by those of questionable knowledge. See also: wizard, magican Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangs Out Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 While I don't know about that, I do remember hearing from pilots that at cruise RPM it was very smoky, although it was avoidable in afterburner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiveWire Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 quite a few american planes of the era had a smoke abatement chemical injection. don't know if that system applies to this model of f-4 but it was on the airplane as well as the a-4 and a-7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick50 Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 Dunno about the F, but yea, often smoky trails.... one trick was when combat was expected, in Vietnam, some pilots would put in a single stage of afterburner, because that made almost no smoke. Then again, fuel burn... but not getting shot down has a quality all it's own! On the upside, they usually carried external tanks, and often had air tankers on station. I remember hearing one time, of a Phantom that was damaged, leaking fuel like a sieve... they made it back to base by formation flying with a tanker, topping up every few minutes. No idea if that story was true or not, but sounded plausible and I kinda wish it's true! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannick Pancake Posted March 21, 2022 Author Share Posted March 21, 2022 Yeah I read something whit stage 1 afterburnder as well, but they introduced the other system to safe some fuel. Yannick "Pancake" CO VF-14 - vCVW Two PILOT [pahy-luh t] - noun 1. A person who does precision gueswork based on unreliable data provided by those of questionable knowledge. See also: wizard, magican Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtPappy Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Yannick Pancake said: Yeah I read something whit stage 1 afterburnder as well, but they introduced the other system to safe some fuel. I think it's "Clashes: Air Combat over Vietnam" that mentions some pilots would put one engine into min burner and the other to idle to reduce the smoke while saving fuel and that it was relatively effective. I'm not sure how it was finally solved later but you bet I'm going to use smoke to IFF while in combat where there are mixed friendlies and hostiles. Edited March 21, 2022 by SgtPappy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayTSX Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 I may be corrected but wasn't it, that the E model received upgraded engines to reduce the smoketrails? It may also be that this was only present after Vietnam in the Dmas version (again sorry if I'm wrong I'm still learning about this plane) P.s. Greetings from Germany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtPappy Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 1 hour ago, JayTSX said: I may be corrected but wasn't it, that the E model received upgraded engines to reduce the smoketrails? It may also be that this was only present after Vietnam in the Dmas version (again sorry if I'm wrong I'm still learning about this plane) P.s. Greetings from Germany I believe you are correct. I believe that the smokeless variants of the J79 only showed up after the US left the Vietnam War and so by the time the DMAS version was around, it was likely common on the F-4E. So I would guess the DMAS F-4E that HB is making may be smokeless and the earlier F-4E will have smokey exhaust. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodak Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Converting over to JP-8 as the air forces main fuel in its later life reduced the smoke trails somewhat also. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayTSX Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 On 3/20/2022 at 12:41 PM, Yannick Pancake said: While I was reading through some websites of the F-4 Phantom it was mentioned on a scale moddeling website that the german F-4F had a measure to prevent the very dark exhaust gasses. It was stated thath they increased the temperature within the engine. But this had a negative impact on engine lifetime, so there was a switch installed on the engine to switch between both operating modes. Higher temperatures for wartime, lower temperatures for peacetime. I was wondering if that's a thing on later E models as well. If it was, I think it could be cool if it get its way into our F-4 as well. Oh btw I believe it's not too unrealistic, that the Germans would do such modifications. I mean we got a habit of doing janky stuff just mentioning the cartridge start on the German F-4F's. Btw didn't the Air force models got batteries and an apu? Or did I misread something? Because if so it's kinda funny that the F doesn't seem to have an apu (why else would you cartridge start?) Maybe someone can enlighten me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannick Pancake Posted March 22, 2022 Author Share Posted March 22, 2022 1 hour ago, JayTSX said: Oh btw I believe it's not too unrealistic, that the Germans would do such modifications. I mean we got a habit of doing janky stuff just mentioning the cartridge start on the German F-4F's. Btw didn't the Air force models got batteries and an apu? Or did I misread something? Because if so it's kinda funny that the F doesn't seem to have an apu (why else would you cartridge start?) Maybe someone can enlighten me Haha, jepp that is true Ah as far as I know, the E also has the cartridge system. AFAIK there is no real APU in the E either. You use either Ground Air or the cartridge. There is a post about this somewhere in the forum... Yannick "Pancake" CO VF-14 - vCVW Two PILOT [pahy-luh t] - noun 1. A person who does precision gueswork based on unreliable data provided by those of questionable knowledge. See also: wizard, magican Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon1-1 Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 Cartridge start is great when you need to scramble right now. Definitely useful for a then-frontline country like Germany. Some systems can even start both engines at the same time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayTSX Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 Thanks for the info Really thought I'd read something about an apu but having batteries is still great considering how often I lost electronics in the Tomcat (don't ask me why but I somehow manage to get hydraulics and electronics shot by AAA or shrapnels from missiles every time ^^ Jester must really hate me at this point) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voyager Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) According to J Baugher's research, it sounds like the F-4E Block 53 and later got a J79 with low smoke combustors. McDonnell F-4E Phantom II http://joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_11.html I do seem to recall that Heatblur had mention we would be getting both an older and newer block of the F-4E, one with the smoky engines and one with the cleaner burning one? Addendum: based on the serial number list he has for the German F-4F's, it is also possible they received a mix of Block 52's with the older J79 and Block 53+ based versions with the newer low smoke J79's but that needs more research to prove or refute: McDonnell F-4F Phantom II http://joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_17.html Edited March 23, 2022 by Voyager 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303_Kermit Posted May 12, 2022 Share Posted May 12, 2022 (edited) As we may see - it probably depends on many things. Throttle setting, altitude, engine type. On the video in YT there's a lot of smokeless F-4E as well as the one living quite a trail PS - The ones on the foto aren't actually F-4E PS2: Do you know that F-4E possess the world only supersonic (Ma=1,2) gun kill? Edited May 12, 2022 by 303_Kermit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VZ_342 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 (edited) On 3/20/2022 at 3:58 PM, Rick50 said: Dunno about the F, but yea, often smoky trails.... one trick was when combat was expected, in Vietnam, some pilots would put in a single stage of afterburner, because that made almost no smoke. Then again, fuel burn... but not getting shot down has a quality all it's own! On the upside, they usually carried external tanks, and often had air tankers on station. I remember hearing one time, of a Phantom that was damaged, leaking fuel like a sieve... they made it back to base by formation flying with a tanker, topping up every few minutes. No idea if that story was true or not, but sounded plausible and I kinda wish it's true! That would make an excellent mission! Set it up so the F-4 can only have 500 lbs or so, and find the range it'll go and make the base/carrier 8-10 top-offs away! Edited May 22, 2022 by VZ_342 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom711 Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 Am 20.3.2022 um 12:41 schrieb Yannick Pancake: While I was reading through some websites of the F-4 Phantom it was mentioned on a scale moddeling website that the german F-4F had a measure to prevent the very dark exhaust gasses. It was stated thath they increased the temperature within the engine. But this had a negative impact on engine lifetime, so there was a switch installed on the engine to switch between both operating modes. Higher temperatures for wartime, lower temperatures for peacetime. I was wondering if that's a thing on later E models as well. If it was, I think it could be cool if it get its way into our F-4 as well. Please note, that there was no such „switch“ in the cockpit for the pilot to operate. If there was a „switch“ on the engine that the technicians could operate, that I don’t know. It might be rather some sort of method to increase the engine temp by whatever means (i.e. changing the fuel/air ratio). Urban myth says, that this would have been something to be used during actual war. And I doubt, that this was actually a german invention though. vCVW-17 is looking for Hornet and Tomcat pilots and RIOs. Join the vCVW-17 Discord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannick Pancake Posted May 26, 2022 Author Share Posted May 26, 2022 4 minutes ago, Phantom711 said: Please note, that there was no such „switch“ in the cockpit for the pilot to operate. If there was a „switch“ on the engine that the technicians could operate, that I don’t know. It might be rather some sort of method to increase the engine temp by whatever means (i.e. changing the fuel/air ratio). Urban myth says, that this would have been something to be used during actual war. And I doubt, that this was actually a german invention though. Yeah, that's what i meant. I was a bit unclear in my first post. There was some kind of switch or valve directly on the engine. 1 Yannick "Pancake" CO VF-14 - vCVW Two PILOT [pahy-luh t] - noun 1. A person who does precision gueswork based on unreliable data provided by those of questionable knowledge. See also: wizard, magican Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEXO Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 i am pretty sure that our dmas version will have a smokeless engine Phantoms Phorever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elf1606688794 Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 On 3/22/2022 at 3:18 AM, Yannick Pancake said: Haha, jepp that is true Ah as far as I know, the E also has the cartridge system. [b]AFAIK there is no real APU in the E either. You use either Ground Air or the cartridge. There is a post about this somewhere in the forum...[/b] Truth. I've actually seen F-4E's being cart started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodak Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 It'll be smoke less, not smokeless. Even the kitted ones still put out smoke, but much reduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangs Out Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 Huh, that pretty cool as I didn't know that the F-4E had "smokeless engines" as I originally thought it was a navy phantom only "phing" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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