F-4E Engine Smoke

[Yannick Pancake]

While I was reading through some websites of the F-4 Phantom it was mentioned on a scale moddeling website that the german F-4F had a measure to prevent the very dark exhaust gasses. It was stated thath they increased the temperature within the engine. But this had a negative impact on engine lifetime, so there was a switch installed on the engine to switch between both operating modes. Higher temperatures for wartime, lower temperatures for peacetime. 

I was wondering if that's a thing on later E models as well. If it was, I think it could be cool if it get its way into our F-4 as well.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Yannick Pancake

[Fangs Out]

While I don't know about that, I do remember hearing from pilots that at cruise RPM it was very smoky, although it was avoidable in afterburner

[FiveWire]

quite a few american planes of the era had a smoke abatement chemical injection. don't know if that system applies to this model of f-4 but it was on the airplane as well as the a-4 and a-7.

[Rick50]

 

Dunno about the F, but yea, often smoky trails....  one trick was when combat was expected, in Vietnam, some pilots would put in a single stage of afterburner, because that made almost no smoke. Then again, fuel burn... but not getting shot down has a  quality all it's own! 

On the upside, they usually carried external tanks, and often had air tankers on station.

I remember hearing one time, of a Phantom that was damaged, leaking fuel like a sieve... they made it back to base by formation flying with a tanker, topping up every few minutes. No idea if that story was true or not, but sounded plausible and I kinda wish it's true!

[Yannick Pancake]

Yeah I read something whit stage 1 afterburnder as well, but they introduced the other system to safe some fuel.

[SgtPappy]

3 hours ago, Yannick Pancake said:

Yeah I read something whit stage 1 afterburnder as well, but they introduced the other system to safe some fuel.

I think it's "Clashes: Air Combat over Vietnam" that mentions some pilots would put one engine into min burner and the other to idle to reduce the smoke while saving fuel and that it was relatively effective. I'm not sure how it was finally solved later but you bet I'm going to use smoke to IFF while in combat where there are mixed friendlies and hostiles.

Edited March 21, 2022 by SgtPappy

[JayTSX]

I may be corrected but wasn't it, that the E model received upgraded engines to reduce the smoketrails? It may also be that this was only present after Vietnam in the Dmas version (again sorry if I'm wrong I'm still learning about this plane)

P.s. Greetings from Germany

[SgtPappy]

1 hour ago, JayTSX said:

I may be corrected but wasn't it, that the E model received upgraded engines to reduce the smoketrails? It may also be that this was only present after Vietnam in the Dmas version (again sorry if I'm wrong I'm still learning about this plane)

P.s. Greetings from Germany

I believe you are correct. I believe that the smokeless variants of the J79 only showed up after the US left the Vietnam War and so by the time the DMAS version was around, it was likely common on the F-4E. So I would guess the DMAS F-4E that HB is making may be smokeless and the earlier F-4E will have smokey exhaust. 

[Nodak]

Converting over to JP-8 as the air forces main fuel in its later life reduced the smoke trails somewhat also.

[JayTSX]

On 3/20/2022 at 12:41 PM, Yannick Pancake said:

While I was reading through some websites of the F-4 Phantom it was mentioned on a scale moddeling website that the german F-4F had a measure to prevent the very dark exhaust gasses. It was stated thath they increased the temperature within the engine. But this had a negative impact on engine lifetime, so there was a switch installed on the engine to switch between both operating modes. Higher temperatures for wartime, lower temperatures for peacetime. 

I was wondering if that's a thing on later E models as well. If it was, I think it could be cool if it get its way into our F-4 as well.

 

Oh btw I believe it's not too unrealistic, that the Germans would do such modifications. I mean we got a habit of doing janky stuff just mentioning the cartridge start on the German F-4F's. Btw didn't the Air force models got batteries and an apu? Or did I misread something? Because if so it's kinda funny that the F doesn't seem to have an apu (why else would you cartridge start?)

Maybe someone can enlighten me

 

[Yannick Pancake]

1 hour ago, JayTSX said:

Oh btw I believe it's not too unrealistic, that the Germans would do such modifications. I mean we got a habit of doing janky stuff just mentioning the cartridge start on the German F-4F's. Btw didn't the Air force models got batteries and an apu? Or did I misread something? Because if so it's kinda funny that the F doesn't seem to have an apu (why else would you cartridge start?)

Maybe someone can enlighten me

 

 

Haha, jepp that is true

Ah as far as I know, the E also has the cartridge system. AFAIK there is no real APU in the E either. You use either Ground Air or the cartridge. There is a post about this somewhere in the forum...

[Dragon1-1]

Cartridge start is great when you need to scramble right now. Definitely useful for a then-frontline country like Germany. Some systems can even start both engines at the same time. 

[JayTSX]

Thanks for the info Really thought I'd read something about an apu but having batteries is still great considering how often I lost electronics in the Tomcat (don't ask me why but I somehow manage to get hydraulics and electronics shot by AAA or shrapnels from missiles every time ^^ Jester must really hate me at this point)

[Voyager]

According to J Baugher's research, it sounds like the F-4E Block 53 and later got a J79 with low smoke combustors. 

McDonnell F-4E Phantom II
http://joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_11.html

I do seem to recall that Heatblur had mention we would be getting both an older and newer block of the F-4E, one with the smoky engines and one with the cleaner burning one? 

 

Addendum: based on the serial number list he has for the German F-4F's, it is also possible they received a mix of Block 52's with the older J79 and Block 53+ based versions with the newer low smoke J79's but that needs more research to prove or refute: McDonnell F-4F Phantom II
http://joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_17.html

Edited March 23, 2022 by Voyager

[303_Kermit]

As we may see - it probably depends on many things. Throttle setting, altitude, engine type. On the video in YT there's a lot of smokeless F-4E as well as the one living quite a trail
PS - The ones on the foto aren't actually F-4E

PS2: Do you know that F-4E possess the world only supersonic (Ma=1,2) gun kill?

Edited May 12, 2022 by 303_Kermit

[VZ_342]

On 3/20/2022 at 3:58 PM, Rick50 said:

 

Dunno about the F, but yea, often smoky trails....  one trick was when combat was expected, in Vietnam, some pilots would put in a single stage of afterburner, because that made almost no smoke. Then again, fuel burn... but not getting shot down has a  quality all it's own! 

On the upside, they usually carried external tanks, and often had air tankers on station.

I remember hearing one time, of a Phantom that was damaged, leaking fuel like a sieve... they made it back to base by formation flying with a tanker, topping up every few minutes. No idea if that story was true or not, but sounded plausible and I kinda wish it's true!

 

 

That would make an excellent mission! Set it up so the F-4 can only have 500 lbs or so, and find the range it'll go and make the base/carrier 8-10 top-offs away!

Edited May 22, 2022 by VZ_342

[Phantom711]

Am 20.3.2022 um 12:41 schrieb Yannick Pancake:

While I was reading through some websites of the F-4 Phantom it was mentioned on a scale moddeling website that the german F-4F had a measure to prevent the very dark exhaust gasses. It was stated thath they increased the temperature within the engine. But this had a negative impact on engine lifetime, so there was a switch installed on the engine to switch between both operating modes. Higher temperatures for wartime, lower temperatures for peacetime. 

I was wondering if that's a thing on later E models as well. If it was, I think it could be cool if it get its way into our F-4 as well.

 

Please note, that there was no such „switch“ in the cockpit for the pilot to operate. If there was a „switch“ on the engine that the technicians could operate, that I don’t know. It might be rather some sort of method to increase the engine temp by whatever means (i.e. changing the fuel/air ratio). 
Urban myth says, that this would have been something  to be used during actual war. And I doubt, that this was actually a german invention though.

 

[Yannick Pancake]

4 minutes ago, Phantom711 said:

Please note, that there was no such „switch“ in the cockpit for the pilot to operate. If there was a „switch“ on the engine that the technicians could operate, that I don’t know. It might be rather some sort of method to increase the engine temp by whatever means (i.e. changing the fuel/air ratio). 
Urban myth says, that this would have been something  to be used during actual war. And I doubt, that this was actually a german invention though.

 

Yeah, that's what i meant. I was a bit unclear in my first post. 

There was some kind of switch or valve directly on the engine. 

[HEXO]

i am pretty sure that our dmas version will have a smokeless engine

[Elf1606688794]

On 3/22/2022 at 3:18 AM, Yannick Pancake said:

 

Haha, jepp that is true

Ah as far as I know, the E also has the cartridge system. [b]AFAIK there is no real APU in the E either. You use either Ground Air or the cartridge. There is a post about this somewhere in the forum...[/b]

Truth. I've actually seen F-4E's being cart started.

[Nodak]

It'll be smoke less, not smokeless.  Even the kitted ones still put out smoke, but much reduced.

[Fangs Out]

Huh, that pretty cool as I didn't know that the F-4E had "smokeless engines" as I originally thought it was a navy phantom only "phing"