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CPG in Multiplayer?


ustio
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I think flying as CPG, with George in the backseat, could be interesting once George becomes competent enough to handle most tasks a real pilot realistically would. HB's Iceman is quite far away from being able to do it, I hope ED makes George better than that. Even if he needs some prodding from the player to fly the mission, I think it's quite possible to make George smart enough to make CPG seat missions fun, especially with the plethora of map options available for the Apache, which could be used to guide the AI behavior.

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I think flying from the front seat will be fine for missions where you are getting into an attack position and hovering while deploying Hellfires, then adjusting your position and firing more missiles. 

I think the problem will come when you are on the move, and needing to use the gun off to the side, or slew the TADS around to find a target and launch missiles and try to maneuver the helo.

I expect to get the most out of the module, you will want to play multiplayer and focus your attention on one role or the other, but yeah, you can take it for a spin alone and plink targets on your own terms.

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Gotta say this is the only way I intend to fly.

I've had enough hours in Longbow, the enemy engaged series, the ka50 and for the last year, in prep for this baby the gazelle.

Oh the luxury of being able to mark targets and flipping between them.  I've loved the little bird - nothing like prepping for something harder than it actually is  lol.

Now - will we be able to hot swap seats like in the gazelle?  That's my worry....

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As a VR user I'm not looking forward to flying this bird alone, well flying and fighting in it actually. I'm still on the fence whether I will end up getting it, I guess I'm going to wait for some (pre)reviews to see how usable George is. If it turns out to be a handful but still a very enjoyable and decently performing module for VR users I might end up joining a virtual squadron, which would be a first for me. I don't mind shelling out some extra cash, if this turns out to be the case, and I don't mind waiting a few days/weeks after release to make up my mind. 

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I think the single player experience will still offer enough interesting possibilities to enjoy the Apache. That is flying AND to a certain extent deploying weapons. But it will definitely profit from a second human in the cockpit.

Also, I think - the multiplayer experience will top the one in the F-14, simply because the second guy has much more to do and to work with. Sure the radar in the Tomcat is complex, but certainly "dry" compared to the taktaktak in the Apache! 😅

"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Lurker:

As a VR user I'm not looking forward to flying this bird alone, well flying and fighting in it actually. I'm still on the fence whether I will end up getting it, I guess I'm going to wait for some (pre)reviews to see how usable George is. If it turns out to be a handful but still a very enjoyable and decently performing module for VR users I might end up joining a virtual squadron, which would be a first for me. I don't mind shelling out some extra cash, if this turns out to be the case, and I don't mind waiting a few days/weeks after release to make up my mind. 

what do you expect? george is basically like petrovic in the mi24. you give him orders, „look over there“, „target that guy and shoot“. or when he is the pilot „fly there“, „fly with xx knots and in yy ft height“, „hover now“.

it is very basic but it works.

 

but if you want the full great ah64 experience, u NEED to go multiplayer!

 

i mean, yes you can have fun with bots in mario kart. but it is a whole other game when played with your friends!


Edited by NWGJulian
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7 minutes ago, NWGJulian said:

what do you expect? george is basically like petrovic in the mi24. you give him orders, „look over there“, „target that guy and shoot“. or when he is the pilot „fly there“, „fly with xx knots and in yy ft height“, „hover now“.

it is very basic but it works.

 

but if you want the full great ah64 experience, u NEED to go multiplayer!

 

i mean, yes you can have fun with bots in mario kart. but it is a whole other game when played with your friends!

 

Sounds true! Just hope that there will be made a special thread for finding CPG/Pilots to us there haven't got friends there play DCS... or perhaps even squads for the Apache, could be nice to train and fly missions with a group of fellow rotorheads...

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17 minutes ago, NWGJulian said:

what do you expect?

I expected him\it\whatever to be more intuitive to use, to be less hands on, and to be more autonomous. But hey, that's just me. If you're happy with how it's setup, good for you. 

1 hour ago, doedkoett said:

You can always try it for free for 14 days after it comes out. If you think it´s missing too many features, you can always try it for free for 14 more days after 6 months, and so on. 
 

If that is going to be an option, I'll be happy to try it out and check it out myself. However I don't think this will be available at EA. 


Edited by Lurker

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8 minutes ago, Lurker said:

However I don't think this will be available at EA. 

 

I'm not aware that the 14-day trial is limited to modules out of EA.... 🤔

And from a marketing point of view (the Apache is already drawing a lot of new folks to DCS), I don't think it would be wise to prohibit the 64 from the free trial.

"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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22 minutes ago, Hiob said:

I'm not aware that the 14-day trial is limited to modules out of EA.... 🤔

And from a marketing point of view (the Apache is already drawing a lot of new folks to DCS), I don't think it would be wise to prohibit the 64 from the free trial.

It looks like for EA released modules trial is avalible about a month after

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  • ED Team
27 minutes ago, FiveWire said:

the biggest problem I could see is with having enough control bindings 

There are separate bindings for each cockpit.

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

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14 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

There are separate bindings for each cockpit.

right, but if you are doing both jobs from the front seat, you are likely to run out of buttons even if you add in an extra controller. You can get around this with a switched modifier, but it would be very clunky trying to do it all at once. You can, however have your control profiles on that switched modifier, fly to the target area (from the front) and hand off the controls to George when you are ready to switch back to targeting. But at that point you might as well just change seats.

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Well, a lot of the functions between the TEDAC handles and the collective/cyclic are duplicated, and others aren't necessarily needed.  For example, you could be flying from the front seat and moving the TADS around at the same time since DCS doesn't know that you don't have 3 arms.  It just knows what is being mapped to what.

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Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

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On 3/14/2022 at 3:37 PM, doedkoett said:

As far as I understand, it will be like the Hind - you can change seats in flight, but only in single player. 

They really got to fix that so we can go back and forth in multiplayer.  Anyone know what the problem is?  

Is it that you can't switch controller profiles between front\back while in game?


Edited by Kayos

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21 hours ago, Bedouin said:

Sounds true! Just hope that there will be made a special thread for finding CPG/Pilots to us there haven't got friends there play DCS... or perhaps even squads for the Apache, could be nice to train and fly missions with a group of fellow rotorheads...

Tinder for DCS Apache 😄

I am sure there are many virtual squadrons out there who accepts new members. I´d invite you to the one I am flying with, but we´re Swedish, so the language might be an issue?
 

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vor 21 Stunden schrieb Lurker:

I expected him\it\whatever to be more intuitive to use, to be less hands on, and to be more autonomous. But hey, that's just me. If you're happy with how it's setup, good for you. 

If that is going to be an option, I'll be happy to try it out and check it out myself. However I don't think this will be available at EA. 

 

making an AI intuitiv and autonomous is a challenge. on one side you want him to do things without u needing to say what to do, and i think he does that pretty good, turn on weapons etc. but on the other hand he cannot magically just know what YOU want HIM to do. in the end it is an AI and cannot do anything without your input, which means you need to have some sort of buttons etc. to tell him. tbh i like the jester menu much more, but thats how ED designed george, more a10/f16 style with a 4way switch. it is a design choice and you will NEVER find a way that everybody will like it. but i think most people will at least be ok with george. i heard a lot of people dont like the jester menu and prefer the petrovic style, but i LOVE how jester works

this is a problem with every AI. if you want to use him hands-free, just use voice commands

if you could decide how george should work, how would you design it? i am just curious

vor 4 Stunden schrieb FiveWire:

right, but if you are doing both jobs from the front seat, you are likely to run out of buttons even if you add in an extra controller. You can get around this with a switched modifier, but it would be very clunky trying to do it all at once. You can, however have your control profiles on that switched modifier, fly to the target area (from the front) and hand off the controls to George when you are ready to switch back to targeting. But at that point you might as well just change seats.

imho the solution to this problem is a gamepad. i am using the 8bitdo pro 2.

i binded basically all important TEDAC controls on it, so i can use my HOTAS as CPG with almost the exact same bindings as i would be the pilot


Edited by NWGJulian
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1 hour ago, Kayos said:

They really got to fix that so we can go back and forth in multiplayer. Anyone know what the problem is?

I'm guessing it's MP sync, as it's the pilot slot that generates the MP proxy, gets the "credit" for kills, etc., so without a special "solo" option that links Pilot/CPG to a single player - switching positions is effectively switching MP slots (spawning/despawning) and although "most" of the code doesn't care, something crucial "breaks/desyncs"  and ED/Heatblur block it.

This is a shame as PC's Gazelle works pretty well (even if there is a list of things to do/avoid to avoid multicrew desyncs). 


Edited by Ramsay

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2 minutes ago, NWGJulian said:

if you could decide how george should work, how would you design it? i am just curious

I´d want him to spot targets and prioritize them according to threat (or other userdefined parameter), so if he spots a group of targets, like five BTR´s and a Tunguska, he´d automatically aim at the Tunguska, call that out and, if allowed and able to, fire. In other cases he´d call them out and mark them on the map. Maybe even send them to the other members in the flight as datalinked targets.
Also, having a bit of mission editor-integration could be nice, so if I create a mission with battle positions (BP) and engagement areas (EA) he'd focus his search mainly on the EA, and also say things like "coming up on the BP" or whatever a real crewman would say in those cases. I am sure the SME´s could develop this line of thought further.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb NWGJulian:

this is a problem with every AI. if you want to use him hands-free, just use voice commands

I hope that we will get a VAICOM plugin for petrovich and george in the future. Commanding Jester by voice is already awesome (if you remember the commands).

I also hope that noone ever catches me on video while I play DCS in my pyjamas, using VR, staring at the ceiling and talking to a non-existing person 😂


Edited by Wychmaster
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1 hour ago, NWGJulian said:

if you could decide how george should work, how would you design it? i am just curious

 

 

Well since you asked:

I would design him with a contextual wheel (like Jester), in addition to that I would give him the autonomy to AT LEAST scan for the targets on his own, maybe give him a few semi-automated tasks to do ONCE he finds some targets (see example below)

What is the use of a co-pilot if he is just sitting there, completely blind and oblivious to his surroundings, where you have to give him direct and specific commands for every single thing he needs to do? You might as well switch to the front cockpit and do everything yourself, right? 

*example*

Telling George to scan for targets and then to mark them as target points within the nav system should be something that is at most nestled within a 2 level contextual wheel, I.E. it's two button presses.

Open menu (press A)

1. First level: Select George Scan for Targets using TEDAC and Press A

2. Second level: Different types of Scans that George can do using TEDAC, etc. and what he can do with them is second level: Select Enter as Target Points press A

All of this Should take less than a few seconds, and then you just let George do his thing, as you start seeing the target points appearing. 

Or another *example*

Geroge - Scan for Threats > this would let him scan for threats continuously and once he finds some he reports them back preferably through an audio cue of some kind. 

Things of that nature. 

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3 hours ago, doedkoett said:

Tinder for DCS Apache 😄

I am sure there are many virtual squadrons out there who accepts new members. I´d invite you to the one I am flying with, but we´re Swedish, so the language might be an issue?
 

I am danish, so its more the old viking grudge there could be an issue 😄 😄 😄

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