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Heading Hold


dresoccer4
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3 minutes ago, dresoccer4 said:

Is there a way to have the flight computer hold a simple heading while flying or hovering? 

It already does within a few degrees, but it can be easily oversaturated

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Can we get a video or better description of ATT hold and when ALT hold is added. For me, I have a non-sprung full length cyclic and non-sprung pedals. I have adjusted the trimmer options already and they work great. For ATT hold specifically, I get the aircraft aerodynamically trimmed in to say, 90kts at 58% trq at an alt of 1000. When I activate ATT hold, what exactly is it doing or supposed to do and what are its limitations? Thanks @BIGNEWY

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4 hours ago, dresoccer4 said:

Is there a way to have the flight computer hold a simple heading while flying or hovering? 

The heading hold is always enabled, but it only works if your yaw rate is within acceptable margins, you're less than 40 knots, and your force trim isn't being pressed. Once you get the aircraft in a stable hover, release the force trim and just apply minute pressures as needed on your stick for small corrections. The flight computer will maintain the heading for you, within the +/-10% authority margin.


Edited by Raptor9
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Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
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I haven't actually noticed the aircraft trying to hold a heading, thought that was WIP with the hold modes and moved on. Until reading the manual again and stumbling upon this thread.

Is the heading hold really always enabled or dependent on the proper take-off procedure as per the manual?

Quote

With the Before Takeoff Check complete and the flight controls neutral, press and
hold the force trim interrupted until the aircraft is light on the wheels
(approximately 20% below IGE hover power on the PERF page) then release,
allowing heading hold to engage.

 

Probably read over it the first time. So maybe I should try this next time.

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On 3/20/2022 at 3:23 PM, Raptor9 said:

The heading hold is always enabled, but it only works if your yaw rate is within acceptable margins, you're less than 40 knots, and your force trim isn't being pressed. Once you get the aircraft in a stable hover, release the force trim and just apply minute pressures as needed on your stick for small corrections. The flight computer will maintain the heading for you, within the +/-10% authority margin.

 

The only time I can get the Heading Hold mode to engage is after pressing and holding the Force Trim Release for a 3 seconds while under 40kts. Does that seem right? If I trim out the pedals to keep me facing one way, it doesn't seem to hold the same as if I press and hold the FTR and release. I have to actively try to change the heading after pressing and holding FTR. Are you seeing this too?


Edited by Strikeeagle345

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Would have appreciated if someone with the knowledge could go in detail on how the "Att Hold" mode actually works.

Been doing alot of practice on the hoovering bit. But after I'm trimmed out, relatively stable, 30 feet, less than 3 knots  and engaged "att hold" I feel the heli starts drifting. I need to work more on the stick then just being manually trimmed out.

Will test more tonight.

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Ok, so have done some testing.

Should have read the manual 😁
After the input from @killjoy555 & @Raptor9 I must say it behaves really well.

At takeoff I did as stated in the manual, releasing the trim close to the power needed for IGE Hover. Kept my feet of the rudders as I gently pulled the last bit of collective to ease myself of the ground. Worked like a charm.

Then I applied same technique going into hover for launching some hellfires. Trimmed out, got myself stable. Then all I had to do was as @Raptor9 said. Gentle inputs on the stick.
So far I have a tendency to slowly drift forward more than backwards. But it's getting there. 

All this with just the force trim button.

Now I just need to figure out how the "Att Hold" mode works.

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Just want to point out that the “pressing and holding the force trim release for 3 seconds” is only applicable if the SAS is “saturated”. Saturated means the SAS has run out of authority. It doesn’t enable anything. The key thing to understand is every time you interrupt the force trim, you’re commanding the SAS to recenter itself and give it back it’s “maximum authority”. Pressing and holding for three seconds does not enable (turn on) the system. Just gives it its full authority again.


Edited by bradmick
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44 minutes ago, bradmick said:

Just want to point out that the “pressing and holding the force trim release for 3 seconds” is only applicable if the SAS is “saturated”. Saturated means the SAS has run out of authority. It doesn’t enable anything. The key thing to understand is every time you interrupt the force trim, you’re commanding the SAS to recenter itself and give it back it’s “maximum authority”. Pressing and holding for three seconds does not enable (turn on) the system. Just gives it its full authority again.

 

Ah thanks for clearing that up. So where the manual mentions "enabling", they mean you're basically ensuring the (already enabled) system has full authority before takeoff.

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Yes, and also no. It’s more about setting the position of the flight controls to enable an easier transition to the hover. You hold the force trim interrupted and set the flight controls (aft and left cyclic, left pedal) to their initial positions for a stable hover. This does have the benefit of keeping the SAS sleeve centered. Once the aircraft is light on the wheels and ready to lift, the benefit is the system has full authority to assist you in maintaining a stable hover. You could just as easily not touch the force trim and work against the magnetic breaks until off the ground, heading hold is still enabled. Then once at a stable hover, short press and release the force trim. Release and center your controls to capture the flight control position you were holding.


Edited by bradmick
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3 hours ago, bradmick said:

Just want to point out that the “pressing and holding the force trim release for 3 seconds” is only applicable if the SAS is “saturated”. Saturated means the SAS has run out of authority. It doesn’t enable anything. The key thing to understand is every time you interrupt the force trim, you’re commanding the SAS to recenter itself and give it back it’s “maximum authority”. Pressing and holding for three seconds does not enable (turn on) the system. Just gives it its full authority again.

 

ah, that is what I was seeing then. SAS was re-centered. Thanks 

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Heading hold won't engage unless the aircraft yaw is < 3 deg per second and less, < 0.1 inches from the trimmed position, and ground speed is <40 knots.  There is some other logic as well based on what, if any, attitude hold mode is engaged, but those are the big ones.  Heading hold is a heading hold, not a "stop turn" autopilot mode.

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6 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Heading hold is a heading hold, not a "stop turn" autopilot mode.

I know what a heading hold is.  The problem is my heading isn't being held.  Unless I trim the pedals.  In that case though, it's not even a heading hold and just normal trimming.

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You misunderstand the system. You still have to trim the pedals. It will try to counteract main rotor torque as much as possible within it's 10% authority...that will quickly saturate because the main rotor puts out a LOT of torque. Once trimmed it will work to hold the heading within the limits of it's 10% authority. You have to actively fly the helicopter to a 'trimmed state' for the system to be effective. That means you still have to do helicopter stuff, after that it'll do it's best to help you. But you have to fly the helicopter.

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Ok, so heading hold is already working in the DCS Apache and I am just too bad to actually get it to engage reliably. Thanks, back to practice then 🙂 (A thought: it would be cool if we could see in the RCTRL+Return control indicator, what the Autopilot/Hold modes currently do and their "authority sleeve". Might clear up some of the confusion and help us learn).


Edited by cow_art
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4 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

The problem is my heading isn't being held.  Unless I trim the pedals.  In that case though, it's not even a heading hold and just normal trimming.

Then please reference the criteria I posted in my responses to this thread.


Edited by Raptor9

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3 minutes ago, bradmick said:

You misunderstand the system. You still have to trim the pedals. It will try to counteract main rotor torque as much as possible within it's 10% authority...that will quickly saturate because the main rotor puts out a LOT of torque. Once trimmed it will work to hold the heading within the limits of it's 10% authority. You have to actively fly the helicopter to a 'trimmed state' for the system to be effective. That means you still have to do helicopter stuff, after that it'll do it's best to help you. But you have to fly the helicopter.

So it's just normal trimming, then.

Perhaps we should move away from using the term "heading hold".  Some people are coming from the Hind where it actually held your heading without pedal input.  The way I read what you stated, it's just holding trim.

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2 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Then please reference the criteria I posted in my responses to this thread.

Is this actually working as it's intended  in the current build? Apache pilots unaffiliated with the product on Hoggit said that the SCAS as a whole is not working as it should in their personal opinion. Same thing is said for the attitude hold.

As for me, I've never noticed the effect of any kind of heading hold or automatic turn coordination and the attitude hold mode is so inconsistent and prone to inducing issues that I find it better to not touch it at all.

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9 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

So it's just normal trimming, then.

No, it's not.

9 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

Perhaps we should move away from using the term "heading hold".  Some people are coming from the Hind where it actually held your heading without pedal input.  The way I read what you stated, it's just holding trim.

You can call it whatever you want, but comparing other aircraft flight control logic, especially one made in an entirely different country, to determine whether something is functioning properly is silly. 

8 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

Apache pilots unaffiliated with the product on Hoggit said that the SCAS as a whole is not working as it should in their personal opinion. Same thing is said for the attitude hold.

Well, not everyone will ever be personally satisfied based on their own subjective opinions on how something "feels" to them in a simulated environment without the additional effects on their inner ear and seat-of-the-pants. People get a different experience based on computer graphics, different peripheral hardware (like short joysticks versus floor-mounted extended sticks), even using VR versus TrackIR.  Further, people seem to forget that everything is WIP, early access, etc etc.  Do I personally think the flight model and SCAS system is close enough to be finalized? No. But making an assessment of an aircraft the week it releases into open beta early access is just as silly as someone saying it isn't performing as it should because the DCS Hind does it differently.


Edited by Raptor9

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11 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Then please reference the criteria I posted in my responses to this thread.

 

What you posted misrepresented the "feature".  It's essential just holding trim the user inputs.  It's not really a heading hold anymore than trimming a Huey with pedal to maintain a heading and it being called "heading hold".

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Just now, agamemnon_b5 said:

What you posted misrepresented the "feature".  It's essential just holding trim the user inputs.  It's not really a heading hold anymore than trimming a Huey with pedal to maintain a heading and it being called "heading hold".

No, I explained the actual logic of the actual function.  How you equate it or interpret it based on your own expectations is on you, not me.  I'm not really sure what you are trying to achieve here.

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