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Aside from variety, why in the world would you take anything other than 16 Hellfires?


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2 minutes ago, dextor said:

What does time on station mean?

Amount of time in the air doing Apache work.


Apache has a lot it wants to do but it apparently consumes a lot of fuel or simply doesn’t hold enough for what it wants to do.

So my limited understanding is that you can load up heavy with 8 hellfires and two full rocket pods, or 16 hellfires, and go a short range and do a very specific job, or you can load less munitions up so maybe two of the lighter rocket pods, less 30mm, and only two hellfires per launcher so that you can fly further and loiter longer

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1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

This actually is exactly what the Apache was originally designed to do. If Soviets decided to invade through West Germany, you can bet there'd be a lot more than 100 tanks rolling through Fulda Gap. The original, A-model Apache was to throw a wrench in the gears of that plan. Now, I wouldn't try that in current version of DCS, but with multicore support, missions or maybe even dynamic campaign on that scale might become feasible.

Yup, got to admit it also went through my mind. Should have mentioned it in my previous post, because like you said the AH-64 was designed to stop the soviet armored divisions, and now when i think about it, having a lot of Hellfires without the need to travel a long distance, might actually make sense. Was thinking about more current scenarios and forgot about the Cold War stuff. My bad.

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30 minutes ago, Los said:

Sometimes whole battles are fought without tanks being involved. Who knew?

Yes, but those polish lancers are dangerous and can poke up to 3 meters into the air, so best to use Hellfires on cavalry formations just in case. 

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12 hours ago, Mr.Scar said:

So no, 16 Hellfires are a no go for me, but maybe I am wrong. Anyway, just my 5 cents.

 

You would be correct if we were talking about RL. In DCS unguided rockets are useless for two reasons. 1st we have a terrible damage model for ground units. 2nd unguided rockets are usually used to suppress enemy fire. It won’t work in DCS. Enemy will keep shooting with the same sniper precision no mater how many rockets explode around them.

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Hellfires are expensive, Hydras are cheap.  If/when a true dynamic campaign with resource management is implemented in DCS, it would be worthwhile to save your hellfires for armor and use rockets/guns for soft targets.

As it stands currently, only real use for taking rockets in the AH-64 is area suppression against spread out infantry formations.  Fuel tanks are worthwhile if you do extreme long range attacks; I believe one of the Sunday supplemental letters mentioned Apaches with an asymmetrical load-out of hellfires and fuel tanks were used in a long range night raid to neutralize Iraqi EWRs in the opening of the Gulf War.  I’m sure it’s just a matter of time before somebody recreates that raid as a DCS mission.

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We used them successfully against ground troops as well. Sometimes you spot tracers coming at you but couldn’t make out the exact origin. 8 hydras in the general direction and the problem is gone.

There are solutions for the area effect problem. Some people made scripts for that. When you use e.g, the rotor ops mission generator it is built in.

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Okay, so I've been playing the Ah64 basically since it came out. And by that, I mean I have given up sleeping, eating, and have rigged a relief tube to my simpit. The calming voice of George and the RWR, "Missile, Missile", plus three IV lines of energy drinks have kept my Apache flying. (lol) 

I've played it in multiplayer for about 8-10 hours, plus at least as much on my own. 

The 16 Hellfire Loadout is pointless currently for my use. I have only once managed to use 16 Hellfires, and I only used them because I was wishing for more gun ammo or rockets. Unless you have a really squared away CPG buddy in the front seat, you just won't have time to shoot 16 Hellfires using George at this stage of release. You'll run out of fuel, get shot down, or screw up your hover and hit a tree or mountain long before you use all those missiles. In the multiplayer servers I've played on, there isn't exactly a shortage of Apache players. So if there are 16 targets at an objective, and you load 16 hellfire's, and take off, and fly there without getting shot down or hitting a tree, Some other guy who is flying faster because they only loaded 8 hellfires will have gotten there first and wiped out half the targets. Oh, and then there are still a few A10 drivers in this game who like to remind everyone who flies a hornet what a real cluster bomb can do. Oh, and Hind pilots still are out and about, and Then a Harrier comes in and does a 10 JDAM ripple and wipes out all the targets in one pass. 

Someone mentioned IRL. Well IRL a JTAC will make some semblance of function from the numerous aviation assets looking to put warheads on foreheads. But... this isn't RL, this is online (or single player, I know) gaming with super complicated modules (which I love, just saying, people...) And any multiplayer environment unless highly regulated, is going to be missile and bomb spam as everyone fights to be the first to kill the targets. No one fakes a tummy ache and mission aborts in DCS. The ground crew doesn't abort your mission and disconnect you when they find a leak in your tire. It is everyone trying with reckless abandon to kill a very targets before everyone else. I don't know any DCS players who quit because they got PTSD from watching their bombs impact. 

You don't have time to use 16 hellfire's at the current stage of AH64 development in most multiplayer servers. In single player you could, but I personally think the Ah64 handles terribly with that loadout. To me it would be like loading a Gazelle with 4 Hot's, an IR shroud, a dust filter and 100% fuel. Sure, you can, but why would you want to? Personally at least some of the enjoyment I get from DCS is from actually flying the module, and 16 Hellfire Ah64 just isn't as much fun to fly. I feel the same way about a Viper with 6 CBU97's and 6 Mavericks. It's just not enjoyable for me. But hey, you paid for that Ah64, and if it makes you happy to fly it with 16 Hellfire's, laying waste to enemy tanks, go for it. Personally, I'll pass. 

 

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1 hour ago, Dscross said:

The 16 Hellfire Loadout is pointless currently for my use. I have only once managed to use 16 Hellfires, and I only used them because I was wishing for more gun ammo or rockets. Unless you have a really squared away CPG buddy in the front seat, you just won't have time to shoot 16 Hellfires using George at this stage of release. You'll run out of fuel, get shot down, or screw up your hover and hit a tree or mountain long before you use all those missiles.

I don't really agree. I'm certainly not God's gift to aviation but my CPG friend and I have used all 16 Hellfires in one sortie multiple times in different online public server missions, once even at night under PNVS. With 16 Hellfires you've got over two hours of fuel and it's actually lighter than some 8 + rocket loadouts so time on station is not an issue. The assumption many here have that 16 Hellfires is heavier than 8 Hellfires + rockets is often not the case, depending on the rockets you take. Additionally, the assumption that it's not realistic is also false. As said earlier, the Apache was specifically designed as a Fulda Gap tank buster and for carrying and shooting 16 Hellfires. In fact, once the FCR and datalinking is implemented, we can take a flight of two or more Apaches, one of which has the FCR, and shoot all 32+ Hellfires at once from a masked position after the FCR bird does a sweep and datalinks all the targets. Yes, that's realistic, and something they specifically train to do because of their original mission as a Soviet tank buster. It sounds insane because it is... insanely awesome. That's the Apache.


Edited by Jester2138
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That really depends on the mission.

I just flew a long mission with a lot of infantry (+manpads) and trucks hiding in forests.
I would have readily traded my Hellfires for a good salvo of rockets from a high trajectory.

 

We're just too used to mission builders stacking tanks over tanks in shoot-em-up-columns, I guess.


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12 minutes ago, Feuerfalke said:

a lot of infantry (+manpads) and trucks hiding in forests

Your rockets would explode on impact with trees canopies and do completely zero damage to ground units below. Another DCS feature.

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We used them successfully against ground troops as well. Sometimes you spot tracers coming at you but couldn’t make out the exact origin. 8 hydras in the general direction and the problem is gone.
There are solutions for the area effect problem. Some people made scripts for that. When you use e.g, the rotor ops mission generator it is built in.
We were told recon by fire was a no-no. LOL

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Okay, so I've been playing the Ah64 basically since it came out. And by that, I mean I have given up sleeping, eating, and have rigged a relief tube to my simpit. The calming voice of George and the RWR, "Missile, Missile", plus three IV lines of energy drinks have kept my Apache flying. (lol) 
I've played it in multiplayer for about 8-10 hours, plus at least as much on my own. 
The 16 Hellfire Loadout is pointless currently for my use. I have only once managed to use 16 Hellfires, and I only used them because I was wishing for more gun ammo or rockets. Unless you have a really squared away CPG buddy in the front seat, you just won't have time to shoot 16 Hellfires using George at this stage of release. You'll run out of fuel, get shot down, or screw up your hover and hit a tree or mountain long before you use all those missiles. In the multiplayer servers I've played on, there isn't exactly a shortage of Apache players. So if there are 16 targets at an objective, and you load 16 hellfire's, and take off, and fly there without getting shot down or hitting a tree, Some other guy who is flying faster because they only loaded 8 hellfires will have gotten there first and wiped out half the targets. Oh, and then there are still a few A10 drivers in this game who like to remind everyone who flies a hornet what a real cluster bomb can do. Oh, and Hind pilots still are out and about, and Then a Harrier comes in and does a 10 JDAM ripple and wipes out all the targets in one pass. 
Someone mentioned IRL. Well IRL a JTAC will make some semblance of function from the numerous aviation assets looking to put warheads on foreheads. But... this isn't RL, this is online (or single player, I know) gaming with super complicated modules (which I love, just saying, people...) And any multiplayer environment unless highly regulated, is going to be missile and bomb spam as everyone fights to be the first to kill the targets. No one fakes a tummy ache and mission aborts in DCS. The ground crew doesn't abort your mission and disconnect you when they find a leak in your tire. It is everyone trying with reckless abandon to kill a very targets before everyone else. I don't know any DCS players who quit because they got PTSD from watching their bombs impact. 
You don't have time to use 16 hellfire's at the current stage of AH64 development in most multiplayer servers. In single player you could, but I personally think the Ah64 handles terribly with that loadout. To me it would be like loading a Gazelle with 4 Hot's, an IR shroud, a dust filter and 100% fuel. Sure, you can, but why would you want to? Personally at least some of the enjoyment I get from DCS is from actually flying the module, and 16 Hellfire Ah64 just isn't as much fun to fly. I feel the same way about a Viper with 6 CBU97's and 6 Mavericks. It's just not enjoyable for me. But hey, you paid for that Ah64, and if it makes you happy to fly it with 16 Hellfire's, laying waste to enemy tanks, go for it. Personally, I'll pass. 
 
Playing SP Liberation CAS means 16 hellfires are great, just chase the orange smoke.

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On 3/20/2022 at 9:26 PM, iLOVEwindmills said:

Guys, a full rocket pod is almost 150lbs heavier than 4 hellfires.

Yes rockets are worthless in DCS, until they add some kind of suppresion mechanic or better area damage there isn't much point aside from roleplaying the real thing.

What I can tell so far, is that I'm quiet surprised about the apache's rockets. They hit quiet well! (both aiming methods)

And for my absolute surprise, I already managed to damage and kill something that got more armour than a fuel truck.

I think the elevating weapon pylons help a lot!

I love to see the impact of such a rocket artillery barage through the TADS.

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I´ve been reading up on an old (and AFAIK out-of-date and replaced) manual for the deployment of an Attack Helicopter Company. One thing I took away from the document was that the armament seemed to be 16 Hellfires for helicopters assigned the attack role while scouts carry 8 + rockets. But that manual seems to be more leaning towards massive Apache ambushes on Soviet troops crossing the Fulda gap.

The rocket pods can carry more than HE-rockets, and I guess a creative mission maker could , for example, use smoke rockets for directing fires from ground based assets or something in that direction. 

Anyways, it´s a game, and anyone can do as they please. Just wanted to show that there is (or was) doctrinal support for all-Hellfire loadouts, as well as Hellfire+ Rockets. 🙂

 

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11 hours ago, Jester2138 said:

I don't really agree. I'm certainly not God's gift to aviation but my CPG friend and I have used all 16 Hellfires in one sortie multiple times in different online public server missions, once even at night under PNVS. With 16 Hellfires you've got over two hours of fuel and it's actually lighter than some 8 + rocket loadouts so time on station is not an issue. The assumption many here have that 16 Hellfires is heavier than 8 Hellfires + rockets is often not the case, depending on the rockets you take. Additionally, the assumption that it's not realistic is also false. As said earlier, the Apache was specifically designed as a Fulda Gap tank buster and for carrying and shooting 16 Hellfires. In fact, once the FCR and datalinking is implemented, we can take a flight of two or more Apaches, one of which has the FCR, and shoot all 32+ Hellfires at once from a masked position after the FCR bird does a sweep and datalinks all the targets. Yes, that's realistic, and something they specifically train to do because of their original mission as a Soviet tank buster. It sounds insane because it is... insanely awesome. That's the Apache.

 

You got the CPG multiplayer to work? The desync is causing us all sorts of problems. A guy in my squadron just LOVES to CPG. Personally, I prefer to fly, but hey to each their own. Anyway, we've had massive trouble getting the multiplayer CPG Hellfire to work. We've spent a few hours on it, on several occasions, and we just can't make it work. Anyway, you paid for that Apache, play it how you want. It's not like there are Army regulations mandating what loadout you carry, or budget restrictions. It's the same with the Tomcat. No one IRL really used the  6x AIM-54 loadout, but the jet can carry it, and all that. Personally, I don't like that loadout either as I prefer again, a more mixed load of 2 x AIM-9, 2X AIM-7, and 4X AIM-54, but that's just me. And since I paid for it, I'll play it how I want, you play it how you want, and hopefully we'll both have tons of fun. I know I'm very much enjoying learning the Ah64. There are bugs, and it's very early. But honestly I didn't expect it to be as good as it is in early release. And it ONLY GOING TO GET BETTER! I personally think it's the best early access release ED has made, and I think it's one of the best modules out there. And again, I can only imagine how much better it will get as they add features and work out bugs. Right now if someone asked the top three aircraft modules to buy, in my opinion I'd say the Hornet, just cause it can do so much, the Ah64, because it's so good, and probably the F14 or A10 because those are such specialized jets that they do their jobs very, very well. But again, this is all just my opinion. When (if, lol)  the F15 comes out the Ah64, the F14, and the F15 are what I'll be flying most of the time. Still love the rest of my planes and helicopters, but some are certainly better than others. Anyway, let me know how you figured out that multiplayer thing, cause we're having all sorts of trouble with it in my squadron. 

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Another possible use for rockets is artillery. If you’re single ship or if you have to be close enough that unmasking is high risk to be hit by sams or AAA but you’re able to get a target point set on enemy position you can indirect fire rockets from behind cover.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Dscross said:

You got the CPG multiplayer to work? The desync is causing us all sorts of problems. A guy in my squadron just LOVES to CPG. Personally, I prefer to fly, but hey to each their own. Anyway, we've had massive trouble getting the multiplayer CPG Hellfire to work.

Don't use LMC. That's what throws the desync. Take the MAN TRK axis saturation down to like 40 on both X and Y if using an analog input and don't gorilla the thumb stick.

Your pilot should also be able to hold a pretty stable hover as well. We tested this for a few hours over the past couple of nights and it works flawlessly if you don't use LMC...just takes some practice.

 

Hopefully they'll release a patch soon so LMC doesn't cause issues.

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On 3/22/2022 at 2:32 AM, Dscross said:

You got the CPG multiplayer to work? The desync is causing us all sorts of problems.

The two issues I've encountered with the Hellfires are:

1) The LMC is bugged and doesn't sync to the pilot, and since apparently the pilot client owns the aircraft, laser, and weapons in MP, a CPG using LMC will not be lasing what he thinks he's lasing. Solution: pilot flies better so the CPG doesn't need to use LMC until it's fixed. This hasn't been a problem for me (and we didn't even realize LMC was bugged for a while) because anytime we're firing Hellfires we're in a hover anyway and never used the LMC.

2) On MP hot starts, the Hellfires seem completely INOP in all respects. Have not found a workaround yet. I have never achieved a Hellfire track in MP from a hot start.

I don't think I've encountered literally any other meaningful desync issues. As you said, this is a shockingly decent release for Eagle Dynamics. I expected far worse.

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On 3/20/2022 at 10:14 PM, Sobakopes said:

Don't worry you lll get mpsm hydras eventually and they will probably be quite imba as well. 

We thought so about the JSOW as well. In the end, all it was but a nice toy instead of a good weapon (Well, the C is farily decent, but I can get similar results with the SLAM). Then we expected the Viper to get the B until they dropped that variant. I'm looking forward to the MPSM, but I doubt they'll be imba. In Jane's they were... one solid shot was a sure kill.

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