Switching between pilot and CP/G

[JetJake76]

Hello,

First, I would like to thank all of the ED team for this amazing module. It's really a pleasure to discover the Apache and it's features. Love it despite it's in early acccess.

What I want to write about, is changing seats during the mission. I have created a simple mission to test Apache's weapons. First, I fly to the target area as pilot, and then, when I am about 3 miles to it, I switch IHADSS to hover mode and start hovering. When my speed is near zero, I switch to CP/G seat with [2] key. The chopper reamins in hover, so i don't need to use Geroge, Then I engage targets as CP/G. But when I switch back to pilot with [1] key, my apache immediately enters spin and the "low RPM rotor" alarm sets off. Only quick reaction with cyclic, collective and rudder pedals can save the chopper from crashing. Maybe I do something wrong, switching to CP/G while Apache is at untrimmed hover? But, as I wrote before, after I change seat to CP/G, my chopper remains in hover, keeps speed, altitude and heading. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by JetJake76

[Baldrick33]

When you say you don't need to use George, how do you have it set in Special Options for the AH-64 and George AI Auto Handover?

If it is ticked then George will start piloting the aircraft when you change to CPG seat, you just need to tell him what to do using the AI helper if needed. Unless you request to take control. Then when you return to Pilot seat you will take back control. Maybe the switch between AI control and your control is detecting a change in controls positions?

[shrimpy_dikdik]

Is it that trim and collective resets when you switch back to pilot? I've not played CP/G yet but did switch once out-of curiosity and it went into an immediate spin when I switched back. 

[nickos86]

Yep. That's an issue. Should better stay with George's last trim 

[JetJake76]

10 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

Maybe the switch between AI control and your control is detecting a change in controls positions?

That may be the point. Maintaining Apache in hover state requires significant amount of rudder left. When I take back the control, it's at the center point, so this definitely causes a spin.

[imacken]

2 hours ago, shrimpy_dikdik said:

Is it that trim and collective resets when you switch back to pilot? I've not played CP/G yet but did switch once out-of curiosity and it went into an immediate spin when I switched back. 

As this seems to be unusable at the moment, I feel we must be doing something wrong, as even in EA, I doubt if this would have slipped through.

[BIGNEWY]

Please add a track replay and check your special options settings for the AH-64D. 

I have no issue coming to a hover and then switching to gunner seat, George will be in hover bob up mode when you switch and you can control him from the front seat with the AI menu.

[Chrjs]

6 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please add a track replay and check your special options settings for the AH-64D. 

I have no issue coming to a hover and then switching to gunner seat, George will be in hover bob up mode when you switch and you can control him from the front seat with the AI menu.

I think the problem is the other way around, moving from the front to the back seat where trim is reset to zero resulting in a violent swing as no anti torque pedal is used.  See my thread here:

 

[BIGNEWY]

thanks

[Baldrick33]

I haven’t had an issue but I haven’t been using the trim at all. Probably not the right way to fly it but would explain why I don’t get the issue swapping seats!

[imacken]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please add a track replay and check your special options settings for the AH-64D. 

I have no issue coming to a hover and then switching to gunner seat, George will be in hover bob up mode when you switch and you can control him from the front seat with the AI menu.

BN, can I ask, do you 'Request Aircraft Control' when in CFG?

[BIGNEWY]

4 minutes ago, imacken said:

BN, can I ask, do you 'Request Aircraft Control' when in CFG?

No I don't usually, I let George fly when I am in the front. 

[imacken]

OK, so I think it's mostly related to Force Trim and taking control when in CPG.

I haven't worked it out exactly, but it's something like this.

Show controls panel with ctrl-enter, go into a hover to a few hundred feet, force trim.  Then, go to CPG. (The first thing I see is a change of heading, but that's another issue, I think.)  Looking at the controls panel, you can see that the controls are untrimmed but do have the pilot trim showing.  Then, press 'request aircraft control' button.  Once that is done, if you do ANY movement on the cyclic or rudders, the trim resets and the Apache goes into a spin as it has lost the left rudder trim.

To resolve this, after pressing 'take aircraft control', it is necessary to press Force Trim when the controls are centred to align with the pilot levels WITHOUT making ANY movement on the controls.

It's difficult to do a track as there are so many things going on with controls etc. that are not obvious.

[ddc196]

I don't use George and I switch between the pilot and copilot often. I know what you're talking about. I find inputting a bit of of left rudder pedal and a little left cyclic right after switching prevents control issues. If you look down at the rudder pedals while in the copilot seat, George in control, you'll see the left rudder input he is using.

[imacken]

You can see the inputs on the Controls Panel overlay.  As I said, when you take control in CPG, you have to immediately trim up BEFORE you move the stick/rudder at all. Otherwise, the trim gets reset and that causes the spinning effect.

[Sacarino111]

HI.

I also had this kind of issue, not always, and I resolved it  from the CPG telling George to fly away and once set in a level outbound flight, I then take the back seat. I think it is a matter of the trim George had before I take the/his place.

Saludos.

Saca111

Edited March 21, 2022 by Sacarino111

[FZG_Immel]

13 hours ago, nickos86 said:

Yep. That's an issue. Should better stay with George's last trim 

agreed

[imacken]

I think - as some of you have been hinting here - the problem is definitely that George trim AND throttle settings are not carried over when taking back control of the aircraft.

The trim thing has been discussed here, but I haven't seen mention of the throttle issue.  Say, for example, you are in flight at around 80% throttle, then drop it down to 30% (could be anything), go to George and he stabilises back to around 80%.  Then go back to pilot, touch the throttle, and you'll see it go to around 30% where it was when you left.

As has been suggested here, surely, when transferring from George to aircraft control (pilot or CFG) the trim and throttle levels have got to be transferred as well.  Otherwise, crazy things happen.

[Baldrick33]

21 minutes ago, imacken said:

I think - as some of you have been hinting here - the problem is definitely that George trim AND throttle settings are not carried over when taking back control of the aircraft.

The trim thing has been discussed here, but I haven't seen mention of the throttle issue.  Say, for example, you are in flight at around 80% throttle, then drop it down to 30% (could be anything), go to George and he stabilises back to around 80%.  Then go back to pilot, touch the throttle, and you'll see it go to around 30% where it was when you left.

As has been suggested here, surely, when transferring from George to aircraft control (pilot or CFG) the trim and throttle levels have got to be transferred as well.  Otherwise, crazy things happen.

By throttle I presume you mean collective? I don't really see how it be anything other than synching with the position the physical collective is on taking back control.

I don't normally fly with trim - it messes with my mind that my physical stick doesn't match the virtual one as my hardware (TM Stick) doesn't work like a real cyclic - so testing this I found the issue as follows

If I trim the nose down - stick in a forward position - enable George and don't get him to do anything other than carry on flying. Take back control and the moment I touch the controls it seems to reset the trim I previously had and the virtual stick recentres to match my physical and now my nose is pointing up as if I pulled the stick back to centre.

My gut feel is that George resets the trim and flies without it and that is what you get back. Having an unknown trim that George AI has applied being given back when I take control doesn't sound an appealing option. I would need to look at the virtual stick and pedals to see what my centred controls now equated to. Again I don't fly with trim so I may be seeing this differently but I have not had an issue other than minor corrections going from seat to seat.

[imacken]

Sorry, force of habit, yes I meant collective!

it makes no sense to me that George’s collective and trim positions are not carried over when you return to the pilot seat or take control in CFG. It’s illogical and creates uncontrollable situations. If George is not used, then trim and collective settings are passed between pilot and front seat. 

[ruprecht]

But if george is hovering with a bunch of left pedal, that's not trim, it's control input. When you take control, your control inputs snap to zero so it's no wonder you lose control. Before I take control from george I'm careful to put my controls roughly where I'd expect them to be so there's no snap change.

Is there any reason to jump in the back once you've started up, until you're back on the ground ready to shutdown? You can fly perfectly well from the front. Adjusting external lighting is basically the only reason I can think of.

[imacken]

Thanks but, as I said, it doesn’t have to be going to the back, it happens when you take control from George in the front as well. Same situation there. 
It doesn’t matter if it’s trim or control input, there should be some transfer of George’s input to avoid the situations I describe, especially in relation to the collective. A slight touch and you can be out of control! I don’t think you can see what position that is on screen before taking control apart from seeing the %age in numbers. 
We surely shouldn’t have to be guessing these inputs. 

[Baldrick33]

Maybe an option to transfer inputs might be the best solution. I could see transferring inputs could become an issue too.

If George has a lot of left rudder on what does that do to my centred rudder when I take control - apply lots of left rudder with my pedals centred until I trim them back? The collective position is a bigger issue as that has no trim. If George has applied 80% of travel and my collective is at 30% surely DCS has to synchronise back to my collective position at 30% otherwise 30% travel now equates to 80% and my calibration is all mucked up.

Personally I find it is the collective position that has the greatest impact switching control.

Some while ago I experimented with a CH Flightstick as a collective. As it wouldn't stay in position I set a button on it as a modifier to use the axis for some redundant feature, so I could press the button drop the collective and the virtual one would stay in position so I could operate a button box. Press button to regain control and it would take a split second to re synch even if I put the collective back where I thought it was. The control switching feels very similar here.

 

[imacken]

I agree with what you say, but the rudder/cyclic transfer can easily be handled in the same way that trim is. i.e. the stick/rudder are centred after trimming, so the same could (should?) happen with transferring from George.  Having the ctrl-enter control panel showing demonstrates all this perfectly.

I also agree that the collective is more difficult to find a solution to, for the reasons you said.  Maybe the collective input from George could remain the same until your physical stick reaches that point, and then it takes control?

[arneh]

I created a bug report about George handing over untrimmed controls: