Jump to content

Flight Director Mode and Auto Hover


MBot

Recommended Posts

It seems that if you are flying in flight director mode and switch to auto hover, it wont actually engage -auto- hover but rather provide control directions on the HUD to hover manually. Which makes somehow sense considering what the flight director mode is supposed to do.

 

It seems I will be flying around in flight director mode most of the time, simply because it is the most responsive way to fly the Black Shark. The control directions on the HUD I ignore completely, that is not why I chose this mode. The problem is, this make the auto hover mode pretty useless. If I want to engage "real" auto hover, I first have to disengage flight director, then engage auto hover. If I want to carry on, I have to disengage auto hover, disengage alt stabilization and engage flight director mode again. Not the most ergonomic way when close to terrain and threats.

 

Isn't there a more efficient way to combine flight director mode and -auto- hover? Those two would be the perfect combination. Hugging the ground, hop from cover to cover with responsive manual control, quickly engage auto hover to use sensors and weapons, then gain all the control back to change position.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, there is not. If you are in auto-hover and you need to fly freely, hold down trim/emergency AP disengage until you get yourself out of hot water.

Also keep in mind that for a real Ka-50 pilot reaching for that button isn't all that hard. Having to click in the pit kinda makes it harder.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last night I tried for oh maybe half an hour to engage auto hover. It was quite frustrating because the day before the auto hover worked just fine. I forgot that flight director mode was engaged. Live and learn. Question is, is flight director mode really necessary?

An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Flight Director and its usage depends on what you are doing.

 

General A to B use the Trim or Route following method... But if you are doing some serious nap of the earth or are generally flying it like you stole it, it becomes so much easier if you have the FD switched on. Eases your workload from having to retrim constantly or flying with the trimmer held down.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, the way I intend to fly the helicopter, flight director is the mode of choice. Of course route AP and the normal stabilized mode are useful for those airline transits, but this is a combat helicopter! :) It is really weird that auto hover doesn't work in the mode that you would most likely use it (when you are hugging the ground and stalking your targets from battle positions).

 

The depressed trim button in stabilized mode is not really an alternative to flight director to me. I can't see me having to push a button during my complete time in the target area. Having to push a button all the time means you wont push any other buttons meanwhile and it distracts from the precision of the controls (at least for me).

 

I guess I have to leave auto hover aside in that case, or program a (unrealistic) macro to get it without having to press various buttons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, the way I intend to fly the helicopter, flight director is the mode of choice. Of course route AP and the normal stabilized mode are useful for those airline transits, but this is a combat helicopter! :) It is really weird that auto hover doesn't work in the mode that you would most likely use it (when you are hugging the ground and stalking your targets from battle positions).

 

No, no, in the mode that YOU most likely would use it. Real pilots use the AP. ;)

 

The depressed trim button in stabilized mode is not really an alternative to flight director to me. I can't see me having to push a button during my complete time in the target area. Having to push a button all the time means you wont push any other buttons meanwhile and it distracts from the precision of the controls (at least for me).

 

You hold it down during maneuver - when you're just ingressing straight and level why would you need to touch it at all?

Furthermore, most of the time you'll be either in a hover or flying in a straight line, and the AP is awesome at keeping you lined up where you asked it to. So again - what may feel 'natural' to you, is not how it's done.

 

I guess I have to leave auto hover aside in that case, or program a (unrealistic) macro to get it without having to press various buttons.

 

Or hover on your own, or, you know, use the AP like you're supposed to :)

This isn't a slam on you - it's just that you mentioned realism. ;)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is really weird that auto hover doesn't work in the mode that you would most likely use it (when you are hugging the ground and stalking your targets from battle positions).
As GG said, you just have to get over this idea that you're flying Gunship or Longbow III. :) The avionics are designed to support the pilot in the way he would fly in reality, not in the way a flight simmer believes the helicopter should fly. ;) FYI, one of ED's advisers on the Russian forum was surprised we are so focused on the FD mode at all, as it is largely unused in reality.

- EB

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Nothing is easy. Everything takes much longer.

The Parable of Jane's A-10

Forum Rules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I didn't say I am flying realistically :) The way the Ka-50 works, it is pretty obvious it was designed to be flown different.

 

It is interesting, years ago I was a big fan of soviet/russian hardware. I often defended it against supposedly superiour western hardware, saying they just used a different doctrine. Now having learned so much with ED simulations through the years, I come to the conclusion that the western "freeform" style is indeed superiour to the very rigide old soviet/russian approach (be it BVR modes of the Flanker, ground controlled intercepts or application of combat helicopters). Or at least it is much more fun in simulations.

 

Black Shark is an incredible sim and I will have big fun for months, but man I can't wait for the Apache :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last night I flew in fd mode for about an hour and discovered just how amazing the chopper is, meaning that I conducted incredible manuevers while hardly using the trimmer /trimmer reset. Indeed the fd mode is quite essential to the survivabitlty of the pilot. Example: on route to the target area I flew with fd mode off, using trimmer whenever I altered my course. Once at the target area I enabled auto hover, acquired targets and engaged with atgm then while exiting the engagament area I came under heavy fire from dismounted infantry. I activated fd and was able to conduct evasive manuvers to get out of the kill zone. While in fd mode the manuvers were almost effortless. Once out of the kill zone I disabled fd, flew back to base. Truly amazing is the accuracy of the flight dynamics of this sim.

An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

The only problem I come accross using the AP is changing to a new heading in a hover. Sometimes you have to hold onto some rudder while you trim. Your rudder is then set off of center and may mean another turn in the opposite direction plus trim to get it recentered. My workaround is using the 'turn to target' to direct the helicopter in a hover, but it seems like a bit of bodged solution on my part or am I being over sensitive about not having centered pedals?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

"Great minds think alike; idiots seldom differ.":pilotfly:

i5 3750K@4.3Ghz, MSI Z77A GD55, 8GB DDR3, Palit GTX 670, 24" Benq@1920*1080, X52 Pro, Win 7 64bit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I didn't say I am flying realistically :) The way the Ka-50 works, it is pretty obvious it was designed to be flown different.

 

It is interesting, years ago I was a big fan of soviet/russian hardware. I often defended it against supposedly superiour western hardware, saying they just used a different doctrine. Now having learned so much with ED simulations through the years, I come to the conclusion that the western "freeform" style is indeed superiour to the very rigide old soviet/russian approach (be it BVR modes of the Flanker, ground controlled intercepts or application of combat helicopters). Or at least it is much more fun in simulations.

 

Black Shark is an incredible sim and I will have big fun for months, but man I can't wait for the Apache :)

 

So you think it's easier to fly the Appache? :music_whistling:

I don't know about you, but most people here in this forum is much more experienced with fixed wing aircraft, so it will take time to master a helicopter.

The trim button in the Ka-50 is simply brilliant and user friendly. How could that have been done better?

A-10C, AV-8B, Ka-50, F-14B, F-16C, F-5E, F/A-18C, L-39, Mi-8, MiG-21, MiG-29, SA34, Spitfire, Su-27, Su-33, UH-1H

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As GG said, you just have to get over this idea that you're flying Gunship or Longbow III. :) The avionics are designed to support the pilot in the way he would fly in reality, not in the way a flight simmer believes the helicopter should fly. ;) FYI, one of ED's advisers on the Russian forum was surprised we are so focused on the FD mode at all, as it is largely unused in reality.

 

So, How do they fly the shark IRL? The AP is a PITA when you don't want to follow a rigid pre-programated path (like near the target, when you are attacking, or running to hide), it's continously yawing to correct the course!

 

Regards!!



Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's what trim is for ;)

 

But then, you have to continuously trim yaw axis too... even if you have to go straight on, the yaw axis proportional control will actuate with different force (because your Cross track error varies with the time) along your way. It's a little complicated to explain even in my own language, so sorry if I don't explain correctly :)

 

The point is that I can't understand why kamov didn't insert a simple stability mode instead the actual "AP" mode, when you can use a near-handsfree "course" autopilot to go from A to B.

 

Regards!!


Edited by amalahama



Link to comment
Share on other sites

I got pretty used to fly in FD all the time. It is a pity that auto-hover is not quickly available in FD, but I got used to use the Shkval and employ weapons while hovering manually close to terrain. I even use FD for the transit legs, once you are trimmed you can almost fly hands off anyway. The autopilot is useful when on those long transits and you want to get something to drink :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, How do they fly the shark IRL? The AP is a PITA when you don't want to follow a rigid pre-programated path (like near the target, when you are attacking, or running to hide), it's continously yawing to correct the course!
There is no such thing as "I don't want to follow the flight path" in real life. :) You follow the flight path as accurately as possible. That's the boring essence of all flying. If you are in Route mode, you have the control authority to adjust your trajectory (say, to climb over terrain in front of you) and then the AP will return you to the designated flight path. If you are not in Route mode, for example when you are conducting an attack, you can simply adjust your flight path and re-trim. All weapons employment is always done under very strict control parameters and the helicopter should be very steady - i.e. well trimmed. In an emergency, you also have the "Emergency AP OFF" button on the cyclic.

 

Remember, the Ka-50 was designed with a single pilot in mind. Targeting and weapons employment - although more automated than in other Soviet machines - is still largely the pilot's task. The flying is what they made as "hands off" as possible. It's a separate question whether it was a good idea or not to begin with. :) Consider the Ka-52...


Edited by EvilBivol-1

- EB

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Nothing is easy. Everything takes much longer.

The Parable of Jane's A-10

Forum Rules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...;) FYI, one of ED's advisers on the Russian forum was surprised we are so focused on the FD mode at all, as it is largely unused in reality.

 

Your advisor is using a Flight Control System slightly more sophisticated than a $100 Saitek. When I get his real Helo instead of my simulated Helo, I'll act like a Real Kamov Pilot and keep the FD off. I appreciate realism and you guys have made it as real as it gets on a desktop, but sometimes the available equipment makes one compromise.

 

Smokin' Hole

Smokin' Hole

 

My DCS wish list: Su25, Su30, Mi24, AH1, F/A-18C, Afghanistan ...and frankly, the flight sim world should stop at 1995.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^ Fully agree and have nothing against flying in FD mode in the flight sim. The interesting part is the knowledge and glimpse of how it's done in reality. If you then need to make some adjustments for your needs, that's perfectly understandable.

- EB

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Nothing is easy. Everything takes much longer.

The Parable of Jane's A-10

Forum Rules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

when flying a MD500 delta model

You used the trim to negate the stick force during take off / cruise/ landing

Flying it untrimed will result in your right arm being about twice the size of your left :cry:

You must retrim during transition into a hover from normal flight, but after entry no further trimming is needed:thumbup:

Just my 2 cents from someone whos been there and done that:smartass:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the OP wants to bring this up with the Kamov Design Bureau :p

 

Why the Route, Descent, or Auto-Hover modes aren't available when the FD is on is really down to how the systems are made not if it makes 100% sense from a design perspective. FD simply disables all ability for the autopilot system to physically control the aircraft (outside of stabilization). It's more a design philosophy behind the FD concept than anything else. Perhaps they wanted to reinforce the idea that "FD on = pilot flies the aircraft" to prevent a pilot from accidentally think the autopilot was flying the aircraft when it wasn't?

 

I have to admit that I don't find FD mode that much of a necessity, spring-loaded joystick and everything. I mean what does it really do for you? I know it shows a visual command of what the AP would direct but if you are interested in following what the AP would do, why not just let the AP do it?

 

I think the biggest help is when I figure out how to use the AP in the manual (not from PVI-800) mode, using the knobs on the HSI for track angle and heading bug manually. That is going to provide a lot more usefulness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it does seem to vary alot what stick you are using.

 

I am using my old ffb2 at the moment (ch in reserve), FD or AP the bird is easy to perform evasive action. But it does not fly point to point with AP like with the CH fighterstick. It's also tricky to get AH to work right--you can hover manually anywhere--but you have to use input.

 

One thing I do notice is that sometimes all AP buttons are turned off seemingly by themselves--I dont' have emergency disengage mapped right now.

 

But if you have a pro throttle, it would easy to go from FD to full AP with AH on a single button, since ch control manger takes mulitple keystokes well.


Edited by uhoh7

E8600 Asus P5E Radeon 4870x2 Corsair 4gb Velociraptor 300gb Neopower 650 NZXT Tempest Vista64 Samsung 30" 2560x1600

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's continuously yawing slightly even with autopilot-proper off because of Heading Hold, which does just that. It is not a true rate-damping channel (that desired rate being a max rate limit or zero, depending on if input is present, or not), as is more common. Turn the Heading/Track switch to its middle/off position to see where it's currently set. Note, you can't see it when in any weapons mode. Retrimming and double-tapping Head Hold can each reset the diamond to a new heading. Or you can just turn that channel off when you don't want to use it, though it requires minor yaw adjustments all the time and even counter yaw to stop a started rotation. ED said something about during coordinated turns the Head Hold channel getting specifically overriden in the Blackshark FCS due to a large off-center velocity vector, but I don't see how that matters since the entire autopilot/FCS only has 20% authority for any control axis. So all you have to do is input more than 20% and it's like Head Hold is off, anyway. Ditto with the autopilot-proper when not using forcefeedback. You can use GlovePIE and PPJoy to add manual trim axiis and other nifty things, if you're interested in doing that.

X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

 

http://library.avsim.net/register.php

 

X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...