Jump to content

Different version of engine exhaust IR deflector


Wizard_03

Recommended Posts

💓Thanks to ED that I can achieve my childhood dream by flying the AH-64 in DCS, and as I look into the apache's engine, I found there is a external engine exhaust is installed beyond the "Black hole" is that "cover" removable?  As the picture shows the difference. Ps. I'm not a pro guy for this heli, but I love it, also, please point me what should that "exhaust cover" be called. 😂

Best regards, and thx for anyone helping.

main-qimg-da547428e409259f2943dbc9349fcc

 

I miss the old days when Novalogic's Comanche Gold is on 😄

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Wags pinned this topic

The Trim reset is a Control Aid due to the nature of Desktop Controls vs Real Life, Every DCS Helicopter has this function,
It's not the same case for removing part of the airframe.
Which it's not just a "take them off and leave the end of the exhaust",
The whole rear half of the engine compartment is the same heat Exchanger assembly, 


Edited by SkateZilla
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 3

Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2),

ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9)

3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/22/2022 at 2:32 AM, 1130 said:

💓Thanks to ED that I can achieve my childhood dream by flying the AH-64 in DCS, and as I look into the apache's engine, I found there is a external engine exhaust is installed beyond the "Black hole" is that "cover" removable?  As the picture shows the difference. Ps. I'm not a pro guy for this heli, but I love it, also, please point me what should that "exhaust cover" be called. 😂

Best regards, and thx for anyone helping.

main-qimg-da547428e409259f2943dbc9349fcc

 


The ASPI was a ASE Upgrade, it replaces the aft section of the engine housing.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2),

ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9)

3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
2022/3/26 PM1点46分,SkateZilla说:


The ASPI was a ASE Upgrade, it replaces the aft section of the engine housing.

Thank you for the info, I learned a lot via this forum, have a good one~   BIG BIG LOVE to ED team and the community 

I miss the old days when Novalogic's Comanche Gold is on 😄

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/22/2022 at 2:11 AM, SkateZilla said:

...it's not a simple process to install/uninstall. 

it doesn't simply bolt overtop of the existing exhaust, the whole rear assembly/cowling is removed and the ASPI Exhaust is installed in it's place.

The ASPI Exhaust is part of the ASE Upgrade

 I don't understand your argument here isn't  not like we are asking someone to physically take them off and put them on a helicopter, it's a slight model change which wouldn't be much harder then the mi8 or mi24.

 

And if we where going to base it off how hard it would be to change in real life the F-16C chin pods wouldn't be removable as well as many other targeting pods including the apache's own radar mast. 

 

My understanding in real life especially with the F-16C they either have a pod or not they don't usally install or uninstall the pod unless the pod needs maintenance.

 

Allowing not to have the ASPI Exhaust opens this apache model to be used with other countries skins including Israeli which would help support the sryian map

as well as the US apache's own 15 mins of fame in the opening act of Operation Iraqi Freedom 2003, this also being the case pre-ASPI exhaust

I love what EDs done with the apache so far and I understand if this is something that wouldn't be a priority until after radar hellfires and the radar mast, but i do believe itll be a easy win for ED to give the people who love the apache especially seeing it growing up the option do have the classic exhaust look as well as having the option for a more accurate look when using it in pre2005 and foreign country scenarios. 


Edited by Cypher1o1
Glitch in posting cause repeat of post text in post
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those items were designed in real life to be easily removable, the pod is installed on a hardpoint

the ASPI when integrated was designed to be a permanent exhaust cover change, the panel itself takes up more than 40% of the engine nacelle,

ASPI is part of the ASE Package, so technically you want a Pre ASE Apache, in which case, You'd lose the Countermeasure dispensers, the sensors, and the cockpit systems to go with them.

ASE Initial Fielding was 2001-2003/04, there were Apache's in OIF and OEF with the ASE Kit's installed.


As for Pre-ASE Apaches, there is an AI Pre-ASE Apache in DCS Already.

And I know it sounds mean, but the Intended Target Country, Model and Block were announced long ago.


Edited by SkateZilla
  • Like 2

Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2),

ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9)

3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
37 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

ASPI is part of the ASE Package, so technically you want a Pre ASE Apache, in which case, You'd lose the Countermeasure dispensers, the sensors, and the cockpit systems to go with them.

ASE Initial Fielding was 2001-2003/04, there were Apache's in OIF and OEF with the ASE Kit's installed.

As for Pre-ASE Apaches, there is an AI Pre-ASE Apache in DCS Already.

These statements are not accurate. The ASE "package" is not a holistic kit that is installed altogether or not at all, but a collection of components that can be installed, upgraded, or removed as needed, much like upgrading sensors, radios, etc.  The up-turned exhaust is just one modification among a large number of items on the AH-64 that has seen change as the aircraft continued to evolve over its service life. The statement of ASE initial fielding occurring in 2001-2003/2004 like you stated is based on a false premise, and is not true at all; AH-64A's in the 1980's and 1990's had ASE equipment such as RWR, chaff dispensers, etc.

The first ASPI exhausts did not appear until post-2005 at the earliest, and even then were initially very limited in number.  Even by 2010 (the tail end of the 2005-2010 window that ED is modeling with the DCS AH-64D), there were still quite a number of US Apaches that still had the legacy exhaust.  Removing the ASPI exhaust has zero relevance to the inclusion of any of the other ASE equipment being modelled in the DCS AH-64D as all of it was present on non-ASPI Apaches in the 2005-2010 timeframe.

Personally, I would be for the exhaust version option down the road if resources/time permitted, but understandably this is a low priority.

  • Thanks 3

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

These statements are not accurate. The ASE "package" is not a holistic kit that is installed altogether or not at all, but a collection of components that can be installed, upgraded, or removed as needed, much like upgrading sensors, radios, etc.  The up-turned exhaust is just one modification among a large number of items on the AH-64 that has seen change as the aircraft continued to evolve over its service life. The statement of ASE initial fielding occurring in 2001-2003/2004 like you stated is based on a false premise, and is not true at all; AH-64A's in the 1980's and 1990's had ASE equipment such as RWR, chaff dispensers, etc.

The first ASPI exhausts did not appear until post-2005 at the earliest, and even then were initially very limited in number.  Even by 2010 (the tail end of the 2005-2010 window that ED is modeling with the DCS AH-64D), there were still quite a number of US Apaches that still had the legacy exhaust.  Removing the ASPI exhaust has zero relevance to the inclusion of any of the other ASE equipment being modelled in the DCS AH-64D as all of it was present on non-ASPI Apaches in the 2005-2010 timeframe.

Personally, I would be for the exhaust version option down the road if resources/time permitted, but understandably this is a low priority.

Sorry, Meant ASPI Initial Fielding. But Yes, it was not a All or Nothing Program. If we are to go on tangents too, then it will be a never ending feature creep problem, as then users will want AMASE Pods, even though the components of the AMASE are already integrated onto the Block we have.

Could it be a simple checkbox in mission editor and IR Variable change, sure. But pretty sure ED's time is being spent on fixing bugs and completing features and not moving their own finish line.


Edited by SkateZilla
  • Like 2

Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2),

ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9)

3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
53 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

If we are to go on tangents too, then it will be a never ending feature creep problem, as then users will want AMASE Pods, even though the components of the AMASE are already integrated onto the Block we have.

That wouldn't hold true either, since the AMASE pods were only on RNLAF Apaches, not US Apaches.  The US Apache version being simulated between 2005-2010 had both exhaust types, but did not have any AMASE pods.

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

That wouldn't hold true either, since the AMASE pods were only on RNLAF Apaches, not US Apaches.  The US Apache version being simulated between 2005-2010 had both exhaust types, but did not have any AMASE pods.

most of the users requesting ASPI Removal Option are so they can do Apaches from countries.


Edited by SkateZilla
  • Like 1

Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2),

ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9)

3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
7 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

most of the users requesting ASPI Removal Option are so they can do Apaches from countries.

I understand that, but that doesn't make the option any less relevant nor does it make it less accurate for the AH-64D version that ED is simulating.

Further, the tag on this thread "not realistic for us late block ii" isn't accurate, since quite a few (if not the majority) of AH-64D Lot 9.1 aircraft in the mid-to-late 2000's still had legacy exhaust.  Not saying it was deliberately misleading or anything, but probably stems from a misunderstanding of the timeline of the AH-64D in US Army service and associated configurations.


Edited by Raptor9
  • Like 2

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/10/2022 at 8:34 PM, SkateZilla said:

Those items were designed in real life to be easily removable, the pod is installed on a hardpoint

ASE Initial Fielding was 2001-2003/04, there were Apache's in OIF and OEF with the ASE Kit's installed.

 

As you state there are plenty of apaches in OIF and OEF with the exhaust mod installed though there are also plenty of examples of D model apaches that don't have it installed

 

these are all deployed D model apaches of the US Army and even a longbow with standard exhaust the bottom picture was from kosovo in 2007.

 

im not saying ED should put this before bug fixes or even before major fixes in the release just thay this minor cosmetic option will go along way to pleasing the community. We are not asking for different versions of the apache here or different avionics just for a cosmetic option that every other helo has since the UH-1H huey

Like I said in the first post the longbow raydome is alot harder to install and remove then the ASPI Exhaust, all it is, is a exhaust duct and cowling.

 

images.jpeg-1.jpgimages.jpeg-2.jpg1_sJ7ftOkvvzJ7sxEmLan-aw.jpeg.jpg

gettyimages-89614990-2048x2048.jpga-us-army-usa-ah-64d-apache-longbow-helicopter-from-the-101st-aviation-battalion-279134-1024.jpgdownload.jpeg.jpg

 


Edited by Cypher1o1
Double added picture
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/12/2022 at 11:39 PM, Cypher1o1 said:

these are all deployed D model apaches of the US Army and even a longbow with standard exhaust the bottom picture was from kosovo in 2007.

All but your first three images are of Block I aircraft. Note the disco ball, old PNVS, lack of CMWS, etc.

Further, the ASPI exhausts aren't easier to install/remove than the FCR. ASPI is a near-permanent modification to the aircraft, not a bolt on/off option like the Mi-24/Mi-8 exhaust diffusers.

Having said that, there are examples of aircraft having all the fixings outside of ASPI:
AH64D_06-7023_091021.jpg

There were even AH-64A aircraft that had CMWS installed:
https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Army/McDonnell-Douglas-AH-64A-Apache/1545592/L
 

There's a lot of possible configurations out there depending on unit, date, and deployment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
1 hour ago, NeedzWD40 said:

All but your first three images are of Block I aircraft. Note the disco ball, old PNVS, lack of CMWS, etc.

The presence (or absences) of such items does not denote Block. Block 1 is externally identical to Block 2, and both were equipped with such equipment configuration variations during the 2005-2010 time period.

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/22/2022 at 4:15 PM, NeedzWD40 said:

All but your first three images are of Block I aircraft. Note the disco ball, old PNVS, lack of CMWS, etc.

Further, the ASPI exhausts aren't easier to install/remove than the FCR. ASPI is a near-permanent modification to the aircraft, not a bolt on/off option like the Mi-24/Mi-8 exhaust diffusers.

Having said that, there are examples of aircraft having all the fixings outside of ASPI:
AH64D_06-7023_091021.jpg

There were even AH-64A aircraft that had CMWS installed:
https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Army/McDonnell-Douglas-AH-64A-Apache/1545592/L
 

There's a lot of possible configurations out there depending on unit, date, and deployment.

I'm not 100% sure on apache block configurations, and it was also muddied with deployed airframes getting updates when the parts became avaliable (besides depot level upgrades), from my understanding from hearing from a apache pilot all (if not most) apaches started off as A models

I don't see what's so permanent about them especially since the defuser is more than likely a annual inspection item and a ware item, also on a helicopter that's supposed to be mostly field serviceable a fairing and defuser shouldn't be that hard to change, I get that it was probably doctrine to install the upgrade and not return them to the pervious defuser, but that's more doctrine then maintenance difficulty 

But

I go back to the original statement of I don't see why the difficulty of actual maintenance to change them out matters in a digital environment, especially since the digital change wouldn't be harder then the mi-24 or mi-8


Edited by Cypher1o1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I can see one big thing from the digital side people are forgetting.  It is not just a change to the external modelling. As certain people here know the ASPI is mandatory now because the reasons for installing it worked a reduction in the engine ir plume. So on top of just removing the covers you also have to...

1. Adjust all the exhust effectors in play for both the visible heat effect and the ir effect.

2. Adjust the ir signatures both for how detectable the aircraft is but also the angles at which said detection can occur.

Etc.  I'm not saying don't do it down the line maybe like the warthog etc in time ED can model different blocks and years and configurations that occured within models even of the same block depending on where/what/how/why things were installed. I mean legacy looks better 😉

 

Just my two cents on the matter


Edited by robgraham
fixing issues from phone post
  • Like 1

i7 13700k, 64gb DDR5, Warthog HOTAS, HP Reverb G2 VR, win 11, RTX 3070

TGW Dedicated Server Admin, Australian PVE/PVP gameplay. (taskgroupwarrior.info/2020)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/8/2022 at 3:30 PM, robgraham said:

I can see one big thing from the digital side people are forgetting.  It is not just a change to the external modelling. As certain people here know the ASPI is mandatory now because the reasons for installing it worked a reduction in the engine ir plume. So on top of just removing the covers you also have to...

1. Adjust all the exhust effectors in play for both the visible heat effect and the ir effect.

2. Adjust the ir signatures both for how detectable the aircraft is but also the angles at which said detection can occur.

Etc.  I'm not saying don't do it down the line maybe like the warthog etc in time ED can model different blocks and years and configurations that occured within models even of the same block depending on where/what/how/why things were installed. I mean legacy looks better 😉

 

Just my two cents on the matter

 

I agree with waiting till the flight model and functionality is fully flushed out, my only problem with that is all the skins made up to that point will have to be modified, part of my point with it being easy on the digital side, is out of most things we can ask for on the wishlist this should be on the easy side so if this is being all out denied then whats the point of a wishlist other then minor tweeks that is more bug reporting then wishlist

 

P.S. if eagle dynamics denies it I'm not really worried, this community is pretty awesome in the fact that someone will probably make a mod for it. kinda like F-16 CFT and FC3 clickable cockpits


Edited by Cypher1o1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/19/2022 at 12:25 PM, Cypher1o1 said:

I agree with waiting till the flight model and functionality is fully flushed out, my only problem with that is all the skins made up to that point will have to be modified, part of my point with it being easy on the digital side, is out of most things we can ask for on the wishlist this should be on the easy side so if this is being all out denied then whats the point of a wishlist other then minor tweeks that is more bug reporting then wishlist

 

P.S. if eagle dynamics denies it I'm not really worried, this community is pretty awesome in the fact that someone will probably make a mod for it. kinda like F-16 CFT and FC3 clickable cockpits

 

You can add 3D Models via Mods, but you cannot delete part of a model via a mod.

Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2),

ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9)

3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...

I have to ask that stupid question....SORRY

What's the point of ED doing the work to add the Option to remove the part?

-Ok, the helicopter looks a bit different then. What is perceived purely subjectively as more beautiful or ugly.

-If you remove the part then the helicopter is much more vulnerable to FOX-2 type infrared-seeking missiles such as Manpads and various others.

Do it have any advantages? Significantly less weight? More engine torque? Anything why remove this at all besides appearance? You remove a piece of protective gear and you get what?


Edited by Dagobert666
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

This is purely a cosmetic conversation. If the model was built to simulate a US Army version of the time period selected, then the users should understand that much. "If you build it, they will just complain more". It's the same with the F-16. Certain consumers KNEW it was simulating a 2007 Viper, were unhappy and complained. The was a MOD made for it, but it doesn't change anything, just makes it look the way that these certain users want. This community is great with a lot of great people but sometimes you have to shake your head at the complaints. The F-15E is already there and hasn't been released yet. The cries of removing the CFT's are funny! It's a Strike Eagle, not an F-15 (pick whatever variant that the developers decided NOT to model). It never fails bro's, some are insufferable and insatiable!

  • Like 1

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...