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Jeff A-A PVE


Aries101

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So,

Just today I found myself in situation that I needed to get into A-A "mode" so I can clear some red F 16's arround on my server. I admit I am not good at that in best of cases. I had on me usual PL5's on tips and 4 SD 10's on outer pylons. I needed to climb for some 13 k feet in order to get myself in spot where I can actualy catch enemy on my radar (I was in default mode, twr I think) Anyway, I locked it and fired my missles and he fired some at me at same time. as usual, I went hard right with some chaff to try to evade missles but I failed. COntrary to me AI managed to dodge missles in F 16 easily. 

Now my conclusion after that event was that due to crap CD 10 missle preformance and utterly horrible jeff engines, plane itself was totally uncapable of any A-A fighting, unless I need to shot unarmed transport plane or maybe heli? I can accept that I will be shot down easy as I am not that good at A-A fight but that missles are so bad? Do you have some experience and advice for me? 

 

Thank you

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8 minutes ago, Aries101 said:

I think I do have tacview. That is good idea. I am guessing That I made mistake by attacking right after climb. I was off energy and therefor dead. Next time ill try first to gain altitude at safe distance, raise my speed again and then try to attack. 

The SD-10 is holds the advantage over the AMRAAM above ~15,000ft, but you should be pushing above 25,000ft if you really want to out-range your opponent. 

Airspeed is extremely important also; if you can break Mach 1, then the missile doesn't need to waste energy in the transsonic region, so you'll get significantly better performance. 

There some good tutorials on BVR timelines and tactics on YouTube, here's spudknockers, it's in the 16, but the tactics still translate to the 17:

 

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also, with the SPJ, you can shrink the mar, so it makes more sense to go higher up, as you'll be able to out range them - they can attack you from farther away since you're up so high, but with the SPJ they won't be able to lock you until they burn through. 

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So I watched video above and one from Growling sidwinder I think where he explains BVR in JF-17. So he used tactics I did not realised before but with good reasoning behind it. He did fire at 33+ thousand feet at F18 i think and got it 2 times in a row (against human if I recall correctly) He also lobbed missle at about 15 degree above locked enemy in tws (1st notch only) and then emediately dived down fast to dodge missle he was expecting to come. Tacview realy there opened my eyes. SD 10 traveled almost 1 mach faster than aim 120c so he avoided his missle fast and hit target easy as sd 10 was much faster and better tracking (more smoothly). I was impressed so I went on server where I usualy fly and tried to do cas. To my surprise tactics worked flawlesly and of two engagement I managed to take down both of them. in forst I damaged F-16 badly and with help we shot it down (I got kill count). on 2nd engagement I took down SU 33 (I did this time fired 2 SD 10) just in case, but I took it down. I also dodged both incoming missle with above mentioned tactics. I am happy I must admit and I now better understand BVR. It is amazing how droppping to dense air kills incoming missle energy. Gotta love good sim 🙂

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1 hour ago, Aries101 said:

So I watched video above and one from Growling sidwinder I think where he explains BVR in JF-17. So he used tactics I did not realised before but with good reasoning behind it. He did fire at 33+ thousand feet at F18 i think and got it 2 times in a row (against human if I recall correctly) He also lobbed missle at about 15 degree above locked enemy in tws (1st notch only) and then emediately dived down fast to dodge missle he was expecting to come. Tacview realy there opened my eyes. SD 10 traveled almost 1 mach faster than aim 120c so he avoided his missle fast and hit target easy as sd 10 was much faster and better tracking (more smoothly). I was impressed so I went on server where I usualy fly and tried to do cas. To my surprise tactics worked flawlesly and of two engagement I managed to take down both of them. in forst I damaged F-16 badly and with help we shot it down (I got kill count). on 2nd engagement I took down SU 33 (I did this time fired 2 SD 10) just in case, but I took it down. I also dodged both incoming missle with above mentioned tactics. I am happy I must admit and I now better understand BVR. It is amazing how droppping to dense air kills incoming missle energy. Gotta love good sim 🙂

The SD-10 is really simulated as best it can be.

You see AMRAAM is a thinner missile the. SD-10, this means it has less drag, which is the biggest issue at low altitude. This means the AMRAAM loses much less performance at low altitude then SD-10.

But SD-10 is based on the thicker Sparrow missile, with much more powerful rocket and more fuel the  AMRAAM. So at high altitude where drag is less an issue in thin air, it can outrange the AMRAAM provided you are high and fast. The higher and faster the better. Rule of thumb is, to get maximum range out of it and score hits at its 36 nm max range you need to fire above Mach 1 and above 30,000 feet. So you will need to drop tanks below their Mach .9 jettison limit enough time before firing to have the time to accelerate above Mach 1 above 30,000 feet in order to get max range.

It is still deadly as hell at any altitude, it just loses more performance at lower altitude then the AMRAAM. Even the AMRAAM won’t go much farther then 10-12 nm on the deck. You just got to be aware of those advantages and disadvantages, and make sure your speed and altitude is less/equal/greater then the enemy depending on the bandit speed and altitude

Oncd you fire, turn 60 degrees to keep radar lock but decrease closure rate to enemy so their missile has to go farther, and decrease altitude at the same time to pull their missile into thicker draggier air. One advantage of SD-10 also becuase of its larger motor and more fuel, is that it can shoot upwards much better then AMRAAM. 
 

The SD-10 is one of the most researched/analyzed missiles in DCS, and has had multiple CFDs done on it by both Deka and ED. So limitations you see, are likely limitations of the real missile, and similar limitations that Western countrie dealt with using the shorter ranged Sparrow missile that evolved into the SD-10. It is essentially, “what if America never made the AMRAAM but put the same technology in AIM-7 Sparrow and made it more aerodynamic?”

 

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5 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

So limitations you see, are likely limitations of the real missile

Not quite - the SD-10 is a solid fuel dual thrust missile. The one in DCS is just a solid fuel missile, so it's missing the dual thrust, the main thing that China provides. It has the R-77 seeker head. The motor is dual thrust with different speeds for different parts of the flight profile. Yea, the CFD was done, but that is not the same missile as the SD-10.  I'd love to be able to change the lua for it on local because they're really nerfing it with the single thrust.

 

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9 hours ago, Napillo said:

Not quite - the SD-10 is a solid fuel dual thrust missile. The one in DCS is just a solid fuel missile, so it's missing the dual thrust, the main thing that China provides. It has the R-77 seeker head. The motor is dual thrust with different speeds for different parts of the flight profile. Yea, the CFD was done, but that is not the same missile as the SD-10.  I'd love to be able to change the lua for it on local because they're really nerfing it with the single thrust.

 

Dual thrust rocket motors are properly modelled, and have been since the AIM-7F was introduced; all missile stuff was really bad at that time, but the motor was functioning correctly. 

The ingame SD-10A does use a correct boost/sustain motor, with correct modelling. 


Edited by Foogle
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2 hours ago, Foogle said:

ingame SD-10A does use a correct boost/sustain motor, with correct modelling. 

It's not using dual thrust - the missile will have an initial thrust and then on terminal phase it will also ignite the second motor, something that DCS apparently can't do.

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1 hour ago, Napillo said:

It's not using dual thrust - the missile will have an initial thrust and then on terminal phase it will also ignite the second motor, something that DCS apparently can't do.

The SD-10A is not dual pulse, it's dual thrust, meaning a combination of rocket grains with differing burn rates creating an initial boost phase to get the missile up to speed then a longer sustain phase to keep the missiles velocity up; the entire motor is burned in a single ignition. 

The PL-15 and PL-XX *supposedly* use dual pulse motors, but credible information is scarce on both. 

 

If you can find a source that says different, I'd love to see it. 


Edited by Foogle
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55 minutes ago, Foogle said:

The SD-10A is not dual pulse, it's dual thrust, meaning a combination of rocket grains with differing burn rates creating an initial boost phase to get the missile up to speed then a longer sustain phase to keep the missiles velocity up

I'll concede on that, it doesn't seem to change it's thrust at all during that burn phase and it's used up very quickly. I don't think it's actually doing the appropriate thing though.

And I don't believe we have INS enabled on the missile itself yet. 

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1 hour ago, Napillo said:

I'll concede on that, it doesn't seem to change it's thrust at all during that burn phase and it's used up very quickly. I don't think it's actually doing the appropriate thing though.

And I don't believe we have INS enabled on the missile itself yet. 

Per the in game LUAs, it has ALWAYS had two different rocket stages. 
 

The boost stage lasts 6 seconds. Has 57.6 kg of fuel, and 242 impulse

The sustain stage lasts 4 seconds, it has 11.6 kg of fuel, and 236 impulse. 
 

All the LUA information on it that is used for the in game missile can be found here https://github.com/Quaggles/dcs-lua-datamine/blob/master/_G/weapons_table/weapons/missiles/SD-10.lua

You can even see this in game, by not only the difference in acceleration after 6 seconds, but the gap of the smoke plume after 6 seconds


Edited by AeriaGloria

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Do you have TacView? If you watch the AI they dump all their speed when beaming, and as soon as their speed drops below Mach 0.50 the missile can no longer track.

Unbelievably, this is not a "bug" but a design decision to prevent you firing missiles at helicopters! Yes, it sucks massively, and can be exploited by humans, too.

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"When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover.

The JF-17 is not better than the F-16; it's different. It's how you fly that counts.

"An average aircraft with a skilled pilot, will out-perform the superior aircraft with an average pilot."

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