Ka-50 vs Apache what do you prefer?

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Which one do I prefer KA-50 or AH-64D

Following is totally original

"Comparing Peking Duck to French Roasted Duck. Two different dishes yet I like them both."

"Dalin' I only give the best duck."

[Hobel]

Am 7.7.2022 um 06:10 schrieb DmitriKozlowsky:

Which one do I prefer KA-50 or AH-64D

Following is totally original

"Comparing Peking Duck to French Roasted Duck. Two different dishes yet I like them both."

"Dalin' I only give the best duck."

I completely agree with you, I therefore see the path more as a stopgap solution, the Aapche once again shows exactly how incredibly important a proper DTC is for other modules as well.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Hobel

[DmitriKozlowsky]

3 hours ago, Hobel said:

I completely agree with you, I therefore see the path more as a stopgap solution, the Aapche once again shows exactly how incredibly important a proper DTC is for other modules as well.

IMHO, after 1 month of AH-64D self training, and having all other DCS helicopter mods except MI-24, I think that flight control system in KA-50 is far far more developed. AH-64D flight control is imprecise, especially on yaw axis. Flying Apache in its current state is like walking on a trampoline. Wobbly and unstable. In flight press  R-Ctrl + ENTER twice. Second press brings up Stability Augmentation display. You can see the channels playing back and forth.  Perhaps part of the problem is Logitech X-56 Rhino signal that sent via USB, and Thrustmaster TM pedals signal. But even so AH-64D should filter that signal, and that is not does appear to be so.

Edited July 8, 2022 by DmitriKozlowsky

[placsea]

2 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

IMHO, after 1 month of AH-64D self training, and having all other DCS helicopter mods except MI-24, I think that flight control system in KA-50 is far far more developed. AH-64D flight control is imprecise, especially on yaw axis. Flying Apache in its current state is like walking on a trampoline. Wobbly and unstable. In flight press  R-Ctrl + ENTER twice. Second press brings up Stability Augmentation display. You can see the channels playing back and forth.  Perhaps part of the problem is Logitech X-56 Rhino signal that sent via USB, and Thrustmaster TM pedals signal. But even so AH-64D should filter that signal, and that is not does appear to be so.

 

Just jumping into the apache the last couple of days and I gotta say I was not expecting the Apache to be significantly more difficult to control than the huey. I found with practice with my setup I could hover the huey with linear axes, not in a million years with the 64. The shark has definitely spoiled me. 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Apache controls are messed up. Trim system is easy to saturate, and find yourself in an odd attitude, where controls no longer work, and zeroing trim throws helicopter in crazy oscillations. Most often when evading fire. Combined with semi-retarded GeorgeAI that cannot tell friendly ground units from enemy, in a fast paced environment. Things go south easily.

I have all the rotary mods for DCS, except MI-24 and MI-8. Oddly the best handling one , as far precision and stability is freeby UH-60L. Second best is Gazelle. UH-60L/M and AH-64D/E in real world have same engines, similar rotors, and similar handling. DCS Apache flight behavior is nuts, and would never be accepted into US Army for combat duty in such state. So I have little faith in DCS interpretation of AH-64D Apache flight model in its current state. But mine, is one man's opinion.

[Hobel]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb DmitriKozlowsky:

IMHO, after 1 month of AH-64D self training, and having all other DCS helicopter mods except MI-24, I think that flight control system in KA-50 is far far more developed. AH-64D flight control is imprecise, especially on yaw axis. Flying Apache in its current state is like walking on a trampoline. Wobbly and unstable. In flight press  R-Ctrl + ENTER twice. Second press brings up Stability Augmentation display. You can see the channels playing back and forth.  Perhaps part of the problem is Logitech X-56 Rhino signal that sent via USB, and Thrustmaster TM pedals signal. But even so AH-64D should filter that signal, and that is not does appear to be so.

 

I answered in the wrong thread

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Module wise, Apache because it is new. Choice in a mission, Ka50 as it is more efficient (SP) and does not have a crazy ghost pilot called SCAS.

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 7/7/2022 at 7:55 PM, Hobel said:

I completely agree with you, I therefore see the path more as a stopgap solution, the Aapche once again shows exactly how incredibly important a proper DTC is for other modules as well.

I forget, what is DTC again?

[Hobel]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb DmitriKozlowsky:

I forget, what is DTC again?

I actually wanted to answer here

 Waypoints and other things you can load into Apache using a "USB stick".

 

[Rongor]

Those who voted AH-64 here obviously never play MP with George. It's an absolute mess.

George can't see half of the targets in front of you.

George lists targets which are behind obstacles and don't have LOS to you, happily wasting missiles.

George misses Hellfire shots on moving targets

George sometimes even misses Hellfire shots on static targets.

George doesn't engage, but claims to do so.

 

This is stuff you have to sort out while being under enemy threat. And it's so much fun that people prefer it over the Blackshark, totally reasonable.

[pii]

On 7/8/2022 at 5:16 AM, placsea said:

not in a million years with the 64

It won't take that long.  Took me about a week before I could hover it but I got there.....then they put out a patch and I had to start over again  The overall flight stability seems to have gone down after the last few patches. 

[gav88888]

At the moment I prefer the KA50, I just find it easier to fly, the 64 is a pain in the **** when trying to slow down to a hover, its so twitchy and all over the place, but once in a hover its just as good as the KA.

[Dragon1-1]

AH-64 should be as good as the Ka-50 when it comes to stability. I saw one Steam review from a guy who said he flew professional Apache sims in his job at TRADOC, and he said it handles a lot like the real Apache does with the FMC completely blown. Basically, our FM would be a lot like how Apache would act without any flight assists. Hopefully, this will get fixed up eventually and so will George.

I don't do helos a whole lot, but I have all of them except the Gazelle. Russian helos can be somewhat obtuse at times, but I do like the Ka-50. In fact, it's a lot better when you realize you're basically flying as a CPG to an automated pilot that is actually quite a bit smarter than George in his current state.

[toilet2000]

On 7/8/2022 at 5:48 AM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Apache controls are messed up. Trim system is easy to saturate, and find yourself in an odd attitude, where controls no longer work, and zeroing trim throws helicopter in crazy oscillations. Most often when evading fire. Combined with semi-retarded GeorgeAI that cannot tell friendly ground units from enemy, in a fast paced environment. Things go south easily.

I have all the rotary mods for DCS, except MI-24 and MI-8. Oddly the best handling one , as far precision and stability is freeby UH-60L. Second best is Gazelle. UH-60L/M and AH-64D/E in real world have same engines, similar rotors, and similar handling. DCS Apache flight behavior is nuts, and would never be accepted into US Army for combat duty in such state. So I have little faith in DCS interpretation of AH-64D Apache flight model in its current state. But mine, is one man's opinion.

Both modules have been demonstrated as behaving very unrealistically by SMEs.

What you find "messed up" has nothing to do with realistic behaviors. To the contrary, the modules that you find best are those that do not behave like proper helis.

Examples:

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 7/11/2022 at 3:13 AM, Rongor said:

Those who voted AH-64 here obviously never play MP with George. It's an absolute mess.

George can't see half of the targets in front of you.

George lists targets which are behind obstacles and don't have LOS to you, happily wasting missiles.

George misses Hellfire shots on moving targets

George sometimes even misses Hellfire shots on static targets.

George doesn't engage, but claims to do so.

 

This is stuff you have to sort out while being under enemy threat. And it's so much fun that people prefer it over the Blackshark, totally reasonable.

Could not agree more. GeorgeAI is a elfing more-on! Single player is just as frustrating. GeoAI either does not find targets, takes forever to find any target, finds any target except the one in front , claims to be firing or engaging without doing so. George also fires without consent. George overides weapons safety.  That is a new issue, and one that I find unacceptable. In short GeorgeAI is retreat-ard. Overall I kind of regret getting into AH-64D this early. It flies weird, it has uncommanded left rolls above 124 KIAS, left roll dips that require significant opposite roll correction, extremely sensitive pedal work, IHAADS boresight that does not stay bore sighted resulting in odd highly inaccurate IR overlay. To top it off, AH-64D is lowest performing of my modules, with lowest FPS, especially in piliot's seat view.  I am not getting any more early access modules. Not worth the aggravation. DCS is a hobby not a job, not a lifestyle. UH-1H is the only module , I have, where AI crew behave as they should.

[Floyd1212]

I agree with some of the criticisms above, but I would recommend taking a different type of approach to your SP experiences.

Play missions where the objectives are closer together, and you don't feel compelled to fly 135 knots all over the place to get where you are going.  Flying slow and low through the treetops and buildings is more rewarding to me than fast and straight. 

When you get there, take up a position where you are at a safe range from your targets and switch to the front seat and take out the targets yourself.  Much more rewarding than using a hat on your stick to tell George what to do.  And then when you miss, you only have yourself to blame.

If you do stick with George in the front seat, take your time and don't rush him.  Still setup in a hover and watch what he is doing with his video feed.  It will become obvious what he can and cannot shoot at, and his hit rate will be much higher.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

8 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

I agree with some of the criticisms above, but I would recommend taking a different type of approach to your SP experiences.

Play missions where the objectives are closer together, and you don't feel compelled to fly 135 knots all over the place to get where you are going.  Flying slow and low through the treetops and buildings is more rewarding to me than fast and straight. 

When you get there, take up a position where you are at a safe range from your targets and switch to the front seat and take out the targets yourself.  Much more rewarding than using a hat on your stick to tell George what to do.  And then when you miss, you only have yourself to blame.

If you do stick with George in the front seat, take your time and don't rush him.  Still setup in a hover and watch what he is doing with his video feed.  It will become obvious what he can and cannot shoot at, and his hit rate will be much higher.

"Don't rush him". That is not compatible with with modern combat even on DCS's reduced level. GeorgeAI "Engaging" or "Firing" cannon, with cross on target, video is TADS with ZSU-23-4 traversing to you, and 3 seconds later he is still not firing. That's is a problem. Being a flying stable rock, as pre-requisite for AI to rounds out, is non-workable requirement.

[Floyd1212]

If you stay 7000m out from that Shilka, and take him out with a hellfire, he’s not a threat. Save those gun rounds for the trucks and infantry where you can get close, and then do it yourself at around 500m.

This may not be realistic with how it really works in the battlefield, but I’m just saying how I get enjoyment out of the module in its current state. You are welcome to put it down for a while and come back later in the EA development to see if it suits you better. 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Many of those 'professional' designed missions with extensive LUA scripting, have 'popup' threats. They popup at worst times at worst places. Choice is engage, mask, or separate.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Don't know why. I can no longer use rockets in COOP mode. With ACQ in TADS or FXD, I am no longer able able to switch to COOP mode on rockets. I can COOP on gun , but no longer on rockets. ED, IMHO, has bolloxed up fire control. Its just effed up six ways to sunday. I got safing that goes ARMED and SAFE by itself. That is by GeorgeAI. Overiding my commands. So I want to use rockets, but cant, fire control will no longer switch to ROCKETS COOP.  G*d I hope this is not going top tuirn into waste of time and money. Really terrible play experience. I'll try with AI OFF. But right now this just sucks!

[admiki]

Really???

FFS, will you for once listen to any advice given to you and RTFM?

[104th_Money]

Just my 100 cents here...This is more Apache oriented but I do prefer it much much more over the KA-50 which I stopped flying completely after the Apache was released. Im guessing the people that are complaining are not utilizing the Apache in the best way possible.

First off, i'd be willing to bet that most people not enjoying the Apache are having trouble with controlling it throughout the different parts of the flight envelope are using their joystick the same as they would fly an airplane, holding the joystick in the normal position and also using a joystick that has a heavy spring such as a Warthog. 

I started holding the joystick at the top with my middle finger on the trigger and my pointer finger up the right side of the stick and putting my fingertip resting on the top pointed to the left. By doing this, I doubled the amount of movement I have to make by holding it normally. But I am also able to halve the movement that I need to make by holding it from the top. This alone allowed me to make much more subtle inputs along with having more leverage to break the stiction of the joystick (you know, the force that it takes to get the stick moving in a particular direction).

Then i ended up switching from my Warthog to my 15 year old CH Fighterstick Pro that has always had a very light spring. Its less tiring to fly with. Im not sure how heavy other joysticks like the X56 are, but definitely try holding it from the top. It will take some getting used to but I promise you will have much finer control by making less exaggerated movements and getting into a PIO or overcontrolling it simply from the mechanics of the joystick. By the way, I don't use curves or trim when flying it. All of the above applies to all of the DCS helos.

Secondly, the Apache is not a sports car for sure. But once you learn how to transition to and from the different parts of the flight envelope you can really put the Apache through its paces and I find it is extremely manueverable. Smoothness is definiteIy key. I have practiced and practiced and practiced for many hours offline to develop the muscle memory requirements to fly well with it. If you don't put in the time, you will not reap the benefits...

Thirdly, the KA-50 is old technology, the Apache a much newer technology. As I tell my employees as their manager when they complain about having to learn new technologies entering the workplace "Change is all around you all the time, embrace the change or you will most certainly get left behind." As a fighting machine, the Apache is a much more combat capable aircraft than the KA-50 as a whole due to the more advanced technology. It allows you to have better situational awareness and survivability on a modern battlefield overall and we don't even have the FCR/Radar Hellfires yet (think no warning of fighter jets firing on you to start). This could most certainly change depending on the features offered by BS3.

Fourthly (if that is really a word), I myself always prefer more challenging aircraft to fly because once it is mastered, the reward is so much more satisfying. Some people don't have the real life time available to put in to learn all of the systems or fly it with precision. Its not fault of the person but they are definitely missing out. Some people prefer an easier aircraft to fly and that is absolutely okay as well. 

Fifthly (ok i KNOW thats not a word), the aircraft is still in early access and they are working on it. From time to time I have George issues as well but I found that quite a few of them were actually my fault. Other issues have been fixed with updates and some still persist. Another thing that I would be most people don't realize is that the longer you fly the Apache, the aircraft systems and performance degrade especially when shutting down to repair. What I mean by this is...try flying to a target area 20-30 miles away, fire off 16 hellfires, fly back to base, rearm, fly back to the target area 20-30 miles away, fire off 16 hellfires, fly back to base, rearm and head back out again. You may not notice, but the aircraft will have a bit less power, George starts acting up and things start to go funny like the time of impact for hellfires will be way off. You may see the impact and get the kill but the countdown might be at 6 or 7 seconds still. The best way to avoid the problem at this time is to respawn in a new aircraft. Hopefully it will be fixed in a future update.

Sixthly (still making up words here) I would add another 100 cents to the conversation but im getting tired of thinking intelligently and typing already.

Money

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by 104th_Money
added info

[pii]

On 7/11/2022 at 6:13 AM, Rongor said:

Those who voted AH-64 here obviously never play MP with George. It's an absolute mess.

George can't see half of the targets in front of you.

George lists targets which are behind obstacles and don't have LOS to you, happily wasting missiles.

George misses Hellfire shots on moving targets

George sometimes even misses Hellfire shots on static targets.

George doesn't engage, but claims to do so.

 

This is stuff you have to sort out while being under enemy threat. And it's so much fun that people prefer it over the Blackshark, totally reasonable.

Maybe we realize its a Beta and will only get better. The Shark was like the 64 at one time. 

[FlyBaby]

Interesting topic...

I have always liked the Apache dating back to Janes Longbow...

But in DCS, the KA-50 is more polished and super stable. Its hover modes etc, allow you to literally park this thing in the sky and handle business weapon wise, the "auto turn" to target is awesome.

I just don't like the way DCS chose to handle the trim / stable modes in the Apache (it is so unstable). The huey seems more stable...

I also don't like the George implementation. Flying as the pilot, it is too much babysitting George and he seemingly takes no real initiative (I mean, on a target list showing units in a convoy, do I really need to scroll down to the greatest threat myself? George should be able to prioritize to some degree....list most dangerous targets first etc.). Also, the target list seems clumsy, and I should be able to assign multiple targets (or a target queue) without selecting "one by one" all over again.   

In short, with a gunner in the Apache, I would expect less workload than in the KA-50 by myself. However, I am experiencing just the opposite.

I realize that the Apache is in early access etc. and will improve. But for now, it is the KA-50 for me, looking forward to the new version.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by FlyBaby

[admiki]

8 hours ago, FlyBaby said:

Interesting topic...

I have always liked the Apache dating back to Janes Longbow...

But in DCS, the KA-50 is more polished and super stable. Its hover modes etc, allow you to literally park this thing in the sky and handle business weapon wise, the "auto turn" to target is awesome.

I just don't like the way DCS chose to handle the trim / stable modes in the Apache (it is so unstable). The huey seems more stable...

I also don't like the George implementation. Flying as the pilot, it is too much babysitting George and he seemingly takes no real initiative (I mean, on a target list showing units in a convoy, do I really need to scroll down to the greatest threat myself? George should be able to prioritize to some degree....list most dangerous targets first etc.). Also, the target list seems clumsy, and I should be able to assign multiple targets (or a target queue) without selecting "one by one" all over again.   

In short, with a gunner in the Apache, I would expect less workload than in the KA-50 by myself. However, I am experiencing just the opposite.

I realize that the Apache is in early access etc. and will improve. But for now, it is the KA-50 for me, looking forward to the new version.

 

 

 

You already said it yourself, it's WIP.

But I do disagree with you on George doing auto target selection. What if mission calls for taking out only high value vehicle and egress? Which could be any type of vehicle. In MC, crew would talk with each other about priorities. List scrolling is current way of "talking" to George.

All this being said, I do realize all of us have our own preferences how it should be done, so ED is pretty much "damned if you do, damned if you don't".