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George should hand off trimmed controls


arneh

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When George has been in control of the controls, he will have reset trim to center. When taking back control from George the controls will initially be at the position George last left them, but not trimmed for this position. Hence when you take over control from George again, unless you happen to be able to put your controls in the exact same position as George is holding his when taking over, you will be left fighting to get the helicopter under control again.

George should leave the helicopter trimmed for his last control position, so that the player can just leave his controls centered to continue flying with George's last control position. This will make the handoff of controls much less stressful, particularly in low level flight!

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Hi, 

George will be tweaked some more but when he takes control there will be some adjustments.

You can untick George automatic handover in special options if you do not want him to take control straight away. 

thanks

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Thank you,

Although I think you misunderstand, this issue is not when George is taking the controls, but when he hands them back to the player. It does not matter if this happen by switching cockpit or using the handover command, he still hands over untrimmed controls, which leaves the player fighting to get the helicopter under control. If he handed over trimmed controls it would be easier.

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Personally I don't want a trimmed setting forced upon me so I would prefer this as an option.

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If you look at this thread, I think I've solved the trim transfer issue when taking control FROM George, but the collective remains a big issue.

However, just to repeat what I said there re trim:

"However, with regard to trim, then that can be transferred, I've just noticed.  If you keep the Control Display panel open you can see what happens.  When control is taken back from George, you can see where the cyclic/rudder inputs are and also your centred ones marked with the red crosses.  Now, just like normal trim, if you DON'T move your control from centre and press the trim button, your controls then take on what George was set to. So, I feel that is a non issue.

However, it's the collective that is the issue.  Maybe, as I said above, the collective input could be held until your physical collective reaches the same point, similar to trim.  Now, that could be shown as a 'ghost' level on the Controls Panel until the correct position is reached."

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46 minutes ago, imacken said:

Now, just like normal trim, if you DON'T move your control from centre and press the trim button, your controls then take on what George was set to. So, I feel that is a non issue.

It's only a poor solution. At least for me, with the trim button on the cyclic (which I assume most will use), just the act of reaching for the trim button could cause enough movement of the cyclic to move the controls away from George's position, before the trim button can be pressed.

But I guess as a work around I could use trim and handoff or cockpit switch from the keyboard, and have my hand completely off cyclic to avoid any movement of it before trim is pressed. But it would be quite cumbersome.

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Just have a good dead zone on the cyclic axis to avoid that issue.

Re the more pressing collective issue, currently, what I am now doing, is looking at where the collective is on the Controls Panel and whenever I take control, I immediately put the throttle near that position.  Far from ideal, but it works pretty well.

Still, we need to find a better way.  As I said before, I think this could be showing a 'ghost' level on the collective in the Controls Panel to match the physical position, which we could then match up to George's before taking back manual control.

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4 hours ago, imacken said:

Just have a good dead zone on the cyclic axis to avoid that issue.

Re the more pressing collective issue, currently, what I am now doing, is looking at where the collective is on the Controls Panel and whenever I take control, I immediately put the throttle near that position.  Far from ideal, but it works pretty well.

Still, we need to find a better way.  As I said before, I think this could be showing a 'ghost' level on the collective in the Controls Panel to match the physical position, which we could then match up to George's before taking back manual control.

All good ideas but I detest a deadzone on my stick and don’t wish to have a controls panel displayed showing me where my physical stick is in relation to the virtual one, it is an immersion killer for me in VR. I guess we just need more options!

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31 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

All good ideas but I detest a deadzone on my stick and don’t wish to have a controls panel displayed showing me where my physical stick is in relation to the virtual one, it is an immersion killer for me in VR. I guess we just need more options!

I have mine set to 4, and frankly, I can’t tell the difference with or without in practical terms. 

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Hi

It is exactly the same that happens on the Gazelle "maintain hover" or the "autopilot" cheat for the huey.

If you retake the control of the helo, and the physical stick and throttle aren't in the same position than the virtual ones... welcome to the world of spining and puke.

But in the Gazelle and Huey you have "ghost" indicators for each control (showing where the maintain hover "inputs" are). So you can match your physical inputs to the "ghost" ones, before take control again. This avoid the problem.

In the Apache, can be partially avoided with Imacken's advice: take control of pilot again, DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING and use trim. This will match the cyclic and rudder with the position where George left them. But as the collective can't be trimmed, once you move your throttle.... welcome to the world of spining and puke.

For sure "ghost" indicators showing "George Pilot" inputs, when you are in the front seat, will be very useful to avoid problems when you return to the back seat (if auto-trim function when you return to back sit is not posible to be done)

 


Edited by daemon1808
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Yes I do have the same problem. Jumping back from the gunner seat to the pilot seat will send the chopper in a "I will roll the dice and wish not to crash state". I do also think that just keeping the current AI pilot trim would fix the problem.

Things seems to be under control when switching from the pilot seat tot he gunner seat though.

 

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Keeping the AI trim won’t work. For example, if you had your physical collective at, say, 30% when you transferred to AI, and its collective went to 80% through gaining height/speed before you took back control, what would happen? Your collective would take over 80% at the physical level of 30%, and that just wouldn’t work.

No, as I see it, a ghost level for the collective to match position before the control transfer would be a good solution. 

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8 hours ago, imacken said:

Keeping the AI trim won’t work. For example, if you had your physical collective at, say, 30% when you transferred to AI, and its collective went to 80% through gaining height/speed before you took back control, what would happen? Your collective would take over 80% at the physical level of 30%, and that just wouldn’t work.

No, as I see it, a ghost level for the collective to match position before the control transfer would be a good solution. 

mmm not following your logic but I may miss something.

The way I see it ...

When you are in the gunner seat, the AI pilot is maintaining a specific trim, which lead the chopper on a specific path while you are playing the gunner role.  As soon as you switch back in the seat of the pilot, THAN you are that pilot. So the trim that was applied by the AI pilot become indeed the trim the player would get.

We are simply replacing the AI pilot brain by the player brain, so everything that was set by the AI while you were in the other seat should stay for the player. By doing so, the chopper path would be undisturbed ... or at least not as much as simply cancelling all trim ... throwing the aircraft in a very unstable state.

 

 

 

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I think you’re missing my point. When you take control back, and you slightly move your physical collective, how does that work when you may be in a very different position to the one handed over to you?

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I did think of one way of dealing with the collective, but it's a theory that may or may not work in practice:

The idea is that the  collective becomes "locked" wherever George has is set when you transfer back the PLT seat. It only "unlocks" once your physical collective axis moves through the point its locked at. So let's say George was holding 60% collective when you swapped seats, but you had your collective axis bottomed out. You then raise your physical collective until it matches George's, at which point you feel it start to respond in the aircraft. You can think of it as a sort of reversed center trim.

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Yep, that would work, but still a little messy. I feel that showing a ghost on the controller diagram makes it easy to match. 
pits only the collective that’s an issue. Cyclic trim transfers fine when you trim on taking control back. 

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34 minutes ago, imacken said:

I think you’re missing my point. When you take control back, and you slightly move your physical collective, how does that work when you may be in a very different position to the one handed over to you?

Ah ok following you now. You were talking collective and I was talking trim (pitch,roll,rudder). My bad. Yeah for the collective you are right, it would be a bit messy if there is a difference of collective between the AI pilot and the player.

 

21 minutes ago, frostycab said:

I did think of one way of dealing with the collective, but it's a theory that may or may not work in practice:

The idea is that the  collective becomes "locked" wherever George has is set when you transfer back the PLT seat. It only "unlocks" once your physical collective axis moves through the point its locked at. So let's say George was holding 60% collective when you swapped seats, but you had your collective axis bottomed out. You then raise your physical collective until it matches George's, at which point you feel it start to respond in the aircraft. You can think of it as a sort of reversed center trim.

Yes I do like this idea as well. I think that this, matched with imacken idea of the ghost would be the perfect solution. So briefly if we are all on the same page:

1. When the player is moved from the gunner seat to the pilot seat, the trim set by the AI pilot would be kept (pitch,roll,rudder).

2. However the collective could be locked (frostycab idea) as well as being ghost shown (imacken).

I think that these 3 solutions are indeed completing each other out.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Frag said:

the trim set by the AI pilot would be kept (pitch,roll,rudder).

 

The trim is kept for pitch, roll and pedals. Look at the Controls Panel. You just need to trim before you move any cyclic/pedals.

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7 minutes ago, imacken said:

The trim is kept for pitch, roll and pedals. Look at the Controls Panel. You just need to trim before you move any cyclic/pedals.

Not in front of my computer right now to check this out but do you mean that the chopper getting unstable after the seat switch is due to the difference of collective only?

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No, it depends on what you actually do when you take control.  If you look at the Controls Panel, you'll see the trim from George. If you trim from the centre position WITHOUT making any movement, the cyclic and pedals take on George's trim.  Wrt the collective, I look to see the level George has it, and make my best estimate of where that level was when I take over the control again and move the collective QUICKLY to that point.  I can manage this reasonably OK, but it still needs to be sorted out properly.

If you don't do these 2 things, you'll spin out of control.

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How about something like this? -  When the switch is made (in-game) collective position is not changed and the physical throttle position is ignored, a discrete up or down arrow is displayed (e.g. next to the ihadss throttle indicator) indicating to the player in which direction he needs to move the physical throttle so that it matches the in-game collective.  Once they match the indicator is removed and the physical throttle is reactivated?  Optional of course, and would avoid forcing the player needing to have the controls display turned on all the time.

P.S.:  IMHO, cyclic trim settings should just transfer w/o any input from the player, as in OP request.

 


Edited by Hippo

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As I have said many times, all that is needed is a ghost of where the physical lever is and adjust to that before taking control.

 

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11 minutes ago, imacken said:

As I have said many times...

 

So why waste your time and mine by saying it again?

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Just in case you'd missed it.

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It is good to know why this happens going from CPG to Pilot cos i wasnt sure of the mechanics-

My guess IRL there is a way the collective in the back knows where the collective in the front is if the CPG has to take over piloting.

For the Collective IMVHO - Just have the autopilot tone sound when the your physical collective setting matches the one George left you with, before there is any input from it.

ED could provide an option checkbox to tone or not to tone for those liking the struggle of recovering a spinning/falling helo.

 

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