Real life implementation: How often are laser guided hellfires used vs radar?

[KungFu]

So, subject pretty much says all.   Since the aircraft is capable of both, why use laser?  To me laser is inferior tech to radar.   No fire/forget, susceptible to dust/fog/etc  CP/G has a higher workload finding and tracking targets.  The only advantages I can see to laser is there is no detectable radar emissions from the aircraft (although laser can be detected in certain circumstances as we all know)   Can be buddy lased by any capable unit that isn't datalinked to the shooter.

So, when we get FCR and radar hellfires...will there be any use for laser guided other than maybe the situations above?   I just don't see why in DCS why a pilot would choose laser over radar.

Real life reason...maybe cost or supply?

Edited March 23, 2022 by KungFu

[SFJackBauer]

How would you be able to guide using radar alone against, lets say, a BTR in the middle of a dense city, with all sorts of obstacles and clutter. Will the radar be able to precisely guide in that situation? We will only know when its implemented. But I am pretty sure the radar is not magic.

[Raptor9]

On 3/23/2022 at 8:29 AM, KungFu said:

So, when we get FCR and radar hellfires...will there be any use for laser guided other than maybe the situations above?   I just don't see why in DCS why a pilot would choose laser over radar.

Real life reason...maybe cost or supply?

Short answer, yes there is, just as you choose the right tool for the right job.  It's kind of like choosing between a GBU-12 LGB or a GBU-38 JDAM. Both have their uses depending on the tactical situation.  Now, I'm not saying that the K and L model Hellfires perform like rocket powered GBU's, just that each have their own pros and cons.

As to how the L-model Hellfire (radar version) is used with the FCR, that is something that starts to touch on sensitive areas that we can't go into, just like the ASE defensive systems. Personally, I would just wait to see how ED implements it and then discuss its use within the DCS environment.

But I can distinctly remember being very choosy of my weapon loadouts as well as my airframe selection in Janes LB2.  Depending on your campaign difficulty settings, you could load up all of your FCR aircraft with 16 radar Hellfires on day 1 and 2, and you could easily be out of them by day 3.  Or you get all your FCR aircraft shot down on day 1, etc. So real-life supply issues affect everything, in all facets of warfare.  You deplete all of your Tomahawk cruise missile supply on day two of the war and now your surface strike group has no more offensive stand-off land strike capability.  DCS missions don't always simulate supply limitations, but if I can do the job with other weapons without losing all my "silver bullets" today, I will; for no other reason to ensure I have weapon options tomorrow.

[poochies]

I can't wait for the FCR and L model hellfires I miss bobbing up getting targets masking and rippling off missiles, or as said above be a bit more choosy take a mix and use laser for non lethal targets and L model for pesky Tunguskas or similar...I can take out SA19 at 8.2 km lasing through less dense part of tree now but it's iffy 

Edited March 23, 2022 by poochies

[Raptor9]

Plus, you can have other assets on the battlefield laser-designate targets for the laser Hellfire.

[KungFu]

4 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Short answer, yes there is, just as you choose the right tool for the right job.  It's kind of like choosing between a GBU-12 LGB or a GBU-38 JDAM. Both have their uses depending on the tactical situation.  Now, I'm not saying that the K and L model Hellfires perform like rocket powered GBU's, just that each have their own pros and cons.

As to how the L-model Hellfire (radar version) is used with the FCR, that is something that starts to touch on sensitive areas that we can't go into, just like the ASE defensive systems. Personally, I would just wait to see how ED implements it and then discuss its use within the DCS environment.

But I can distinctly remember being very choosy of my weapon loadouts as well as my airframe selection in Janes Longbow 2.  Depending on your campaign difficulty settings, you could load up all of your FCR aircraft with 16 radar Hellfires on day 1 and 2, and you could easily be out of them by day 3.  Or you get all your FCR aircraft shot down on day 1, etc. So real-life supply issues affect everything, in all facets of warfare.  You deplete all of your Tomahawk cruise missile supply on day two of the war and now your surface strike group has no more offensive stand-off land strike capability.  DCS missions don't always simulate supply limitations, but if I can do the job with other weapons without losing all my "silver bullets" today, I will; for no other reason to ensure I have weapon options tomorrow.

 

Well that's kinda what I'm getting at, right tool for the job.   The question is, when to use laser over radar IRL and then how that will translate into DCS   I've just thought of maybe a another reason, how good is the radar hellfire on GMTs  and as SFJackBauer said, more precision guidance in cluttered areas.    Not sure if we could answer that and you said that's getting into probably classified stuff.

 

[Raptor9]

2 minutes ago, KungFu said:

The question is, when to use laser over radar IRL and then how that will translate into DCS

Yeah, IRL stuff is often a no-no, and may not always translate into DCS anyway, so no reason to even go into it.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Raptor9

[Gunfreak]

There's also role-playing. While the D isn't cold war era really. You could still pretend it's 1985. Protecting the Fulda Gap. 

[Gunrun_KS]

Pretty much just adding on to what everyone else is saying.  Picking the right tool for the job and not using radar guided if you don't have to.

I would implement radar guided if I wanted to limit exposure to a high threat enemy like AAA and SAM's.  Where as a technical or a sniper in a building where this is less of a threat then you'd just punch a laser guided into those. 

If you've seen a lot of the videos or ever worked with Apaches they have a very good standoff and are very quiet and hard to observe due to night and fly low/mixing in with ground clutter.  A lot of times the enemy doesn't know it's there until they are getting shot at.  So these are more of those direct engagement type scenarios. 

[frostycab]

I’ve often thought about this in terms of budget and availability. If you think about it, why did we send planes over Baghdad in 1991 when many targets could have simply been destroyed with extra cruise missiles? You can apply the same decision-making process to other aircraft too. For example, why use conventional freefall bombs when you have LGBs available to you?

Cost must play some part in deciding what ordinance to use, and also the available stockpiles of a given weapon type. 

Additionally, the concept of firing from behind cover with the radar version assumes that targets are or will remain static. Do radar hellfires update target positions when in flight? If not then they will be useless for tight concentrations of vehicles that scatter as soon as something nearby gets hit. You’ll have to unmask the radar and update positions for each weapon shot. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by frostycab

[LooseSeal]

There was very long thread on here over the last year about how often radar-guided Hellfires had been fired in anger using the Apache. No idea where it is now, but I think the overwhelming evidence pointed to only laser-guided really being used in conflicts.

I honestly feel like there's an almost unspoken, mythical sort of 'oooh, shiny' idea attached to something being radar-guided. So, for whatever reason, we immediately assume it must be really useful. Like how we were all looking forward to getting A/G radar for the Hornet, and then I personally found it absolutely useless and would much rather just use a targeting pod.

Looking at how British Apaches were used in Afghanistan, you get the idea that they used the FCR to get a better picture of threats in the area, but actually engaged them using laser-guided Hellfires.

[poochies]

So my hopes of rippling radar hellfires masked like in EECH or LB2 are unrealistic  Sorry Admin for mentioning other( mostly dead )  sims ....

[Fromthedeep]

This also boils down to theoretical capabilities and actual capabilities. While we don't have detailed information on how well the FCR works, Casmo often said that the FCR doesn't exactly work as well in practice as it's advertised. Whether that means low reliability and high maintenance, high rate of false positive targets, unreliable detection, tracking and sorting capabilities or something else entirely is not something we know. It could mean any and all of these. The DCS FCR (just like the Hornet air to ground radar) will very likely emulate the idea, the intention behind the sensor and not its actual real world capabilities.

[jojo]

2 hours ago, KungFu said:

So, subject pretty much says all.   Since the aircraft is capable of both, why use laser?  To me laser is inferior tech to radar.   No fire/forget, susceptible to dust/fog/etc  CP/G has a higher workload finding and tracking targets.  The only advantages I can see to laser is there is no detectable radar emissions from the aircraft (although laser can be detected in certain circumstances as we all know)   Can be buddy lased by any capable unit that isn't datalinked to the shooter.

So, when we get FCR and radar hellfires...will there be any use for laser guided other than maybe the situations above?   I just don't see why in DCS why a pilot would choose laser over radar.

Real life reason...maybe cost or supply?

 

My two cents:
- radar missile: great to obliterate vehicles/ convoys in open terrain
- laser missile: you can paint anything you want to destroy with a laser. From MBT to foot machine gunner  

[Sobakopes]

Radar should be useless for vehicles between buildings and or trees? 

I would expect radar missiles mostly unused because of the type of warfare that is going on. 

[Nealius]

An active radar missile can't be canceled mid-flight. With a laser guided weapon you can abort the attack by redirecting the laser off to an empty field. They can also be buddy lased when the firing aircraft is in a position where it can't see (visually or with radar) the target.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Nealius

[FourSpeed]

I can think of 3 reasons I might choose Laser guided Hellfires over Radar Guided ones in a tactical environment.

1>  The spotter and the shooter can be in two different locations making it more difficult for the enemy to defend against

2>  Radar is (essentially) a radio signal making it much easier (I suspect) for the enemy to detect, than a single beam of focused light.

3>  Given the focused nature of a laser beam I also suspect it's (generally) more accurate, and less susceptible to interference than radar. Sure, clouds and such can be a pita for lasers, but not usually at a couple hundred feet of altitude...  

 

Anyway, not a RL Apache Pilot, so those ideas are just my speculations, but  ... they work for me...   YMMV.   

 

Cheers,

4

 

[BeastyBaiter]

Radar doesn't see everything. It's great against moving vehicles but completely useless against the MG emplacement in the 2nd floor window of a mud brick house. Within the context of a typical DCS mission, my guess is laser hellfires will serve no purpose once we get the FCR as it's pretty rare to see a mission here that isn't just a giant convoy of armor out in the open. Lately I've been toying with more realistic setups but the inevitable result of that is missiles are generally useless. Just end up using tons of rockets and guns to spray and pray into the edge of a forest I see fire coming from.

[agamemnon_b5]

On 3/23/2022 at 10:42 AM, LooseSeal said:

There was very long thread on here over the last year about how often radar-guided Hellfires had been fired in anger using the Apache. No idea where it is now, but I think the overwhelming evidence pointed to only laser-guided really being used in conflicts.

To be fair, the majors conflicts over the past two decades have been insurgencies.  Radar guided munitions would be useless in that regards so it isn't surprising radar Hellfire use has been minimal at best.

It would be interesting to see if the Russians have used any helicopter fcr-guided munitions (poor performance of the Russian military as a whole, aside).

[Bunny Clark]

On 3/23/2022 at 8:29 AM, KungFu said:

So, when we get FCR and radar hellfires...will there be any use for laser guided other than maybe the situations above?   I just don't see why in DCS why a pilot would choose laser over radar.

Radar Hellfires are great against big metal vehicles. If you're shooting a bunch of tanks, then radar guided is likely the way.

But, the radar Hellfires can only guide on things that can be picked out as objects by the radar. Laser Hellfires, by comparison, can be guided to anything the CPG can point the TADS at. This allows pinpoint precision in crowed urban environments, hitting specific sections of buildings, hitting very specific visually identified vehicles, and hitting objects which don't have a great radar return like fortified infantry positions, MG emplacements, mortar teams, and supply depots.