Is there Rudder trim on the real Apache?

[Rhinozherous]

The Apache is the first module where the "Rudder trimmer" option is more then a checkbox in special options.

I wondered if the Rudder in the real chopper is also trimmed to a new center position when using the Force Trim Release button?

Edited March 24, 2022 by Rhinozherous

[Grennymaster]

Helos in generell dont have a trim on the Rudder as far as i know. the whole system is hydraulik so the pedals stay whre you left them. same ist with the Cyclic but this is with an magnetic break.

[Nealius]

Mi-8, Mi-24, Uh-60, and the Apache all have rudder trim, however it's not tied with the cyclic trim. IIRC they have a separate trim switch on the rudder pedals themselves. 

[Grennymaster]

there is a trim switch on the Pedals? never noticed that. I have a few hours in german helos, BO 105, R33 could not get more cause of health issiues...... never seen a trim funktion for the rudder there. Maybe we mean the same? you put the pedel in an direktion an it stays there, more or lees in RL

if not i would love to see some pictures if possible. Always nice to learn more

[kgillers3]

Yes the pedals have trim. Yes it’s linked to the cyclic trim button. No there is not a separate button for pedal trim. 

The uh60 has buttons/switches on the tail rotor pedals if you’re looking for pictures I’m sure you could find some. 

[exil]

1 hour ago, Grennymaster said:

there is a trim switch on the Pedals? never noticed that. I have a few hours in german helos, BO 105, R33 could not get more cause of health issiues...... never seen a trim funktion for the rudder there. Maybe we mean the same? you put the pedel in an direktion an it stays there, more or lees in RL

if not i would love to see some pictures if possible. Always nice to learn more

Not actually a trim switch. They are called micro switches. The pedals are actuated by the AFCS depending on your demand on the collective to keep you in trim. 

So if you push the micro switches it set a new reference Datum for heading hold. If you let go (feet off) the AFCS maintains that heading depending on your collective setting. Over a certain IAS you would have to press the switches in order to maintain a coordinated turn. 

I believe the apache works that way too, but it's just not possible to implement Sim wise. 

[kgillers3]

1 minute ago, exil said:

Not actually a trim switch. They are called micro switches. The pedals are actuated by the AFCS depending on your demand on the collective to keep you in trim. 

So if you push the micro switches it set a new reference Datum for heading hold. If you let go (feet off) the AFCS maintains that heading depending on your collective setting. Over a certain IAS you would have to press the switches in order to maintain a coordinated turn. 

I believe the apache works that way too, but it's just not possible to implement Sim wise. 

The apache does not have switches on the pedals.  Force trim is via the force trim release on the cyclic which releases the pedals for retrimming and the cyclic simultaneously. 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by kgillers3

[TED]

2 hours ago, Grennymaster said:

Helos in generell dont have a trim on the Rudder as far as i know. the whole system is hydraulik so the pedals stay whre you left them. same ist with the Cyclic but this is with an magnetic break.

Errr…yes they do. The last 8 different types I have flown in the last 20 years all have had yaw trim. Only a couple of types I’ve been rated in in my career that didn’t have it. Most IFR certified types will have it integrated in the afcs.  

 

[exil]

38 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

The apache does not have switches on the pedals.  Force trim is via the force trim release on the cyclic which releases the pedals for retrimming and the cyclic simultaneously. 

 

 

Yes. In DCS. I believe not in the real aircraft. 

[kgillers3]

1 hour ago, exil said:

Yes. In DCS. I believe not in the real aircraft. 

It has force trim options in game and in real life are both linked to the force trim release located on the hat on the top left of the cyclic. There maybe a check box in dcs to disable force trim on the pedals that I don't know for a fact. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by kgillers3

[Devrim]

Why do people talk without having certain knowledge?

[exil]

54 minutes ago, Devrim said:

Why do people talk without having certain knowledge?

Enlighten us then...

[some1]

A trim feel system is incorporated in both the cyclic and pedals providing a control force gradient with control displacement from a selected trim position. A trim release switch allows momentary disengagement of the trim feel system.

That's what Ah-64 manual says. The trim release switch is the one on the cyclic, there are no other switches on the pedals themselves. 

[BIGNEWY]

Please remember the trim options are there in special menu because of the different types of devices available to the public market. We have to make it as playable as possible, even though the device may not be like the real control set. 

thanks

[Grennymaster]

vor einer Stunde schrieb TED:

Errr…yes they do. The last 8 different types I have flown in the last 20 years all have had yaw trim. Only a couple of types I’ve been rated in in my career that didn’t have it. Most IFR certified types will have it integrated in the afcs.  

 

i think i just cant write it as i meant it. as i did my lessons on the r33 i just put the pedal to where i whant and left it there. for me thats not a trim. for the sim i also have pedals that stay where i left them, got an damper installed. Means i dont have to push a button for holding an pedal position, wich for my understanding is trim.

my intention was not be be rude or something, just shared my understanding. Sry if i sad something wrong.

[kgillers3]

Just now, Grennymaster said:

i think i just cant write it as i meant it. as i did my lessons on the r33 i just put the pedal to where i whant and left it there. for me thats not a trim. for the sim i also have pedals that stay where i left them, got an damper installed. Means i dont have to push a button for holding an pedal position, wich for my understanding is trim.

my intention was not be be rude or something, just shared my understanding. Sry if i sad something wrong.

How'd you do the damper mod? do you like it? 

[Grennymaster]

Gerade eben schrieb kgillers3:

How'd you do the damper mod? do you like it? 

i got the V3 version of the MFD crosswind pedals, they are provided with threadet wholes for a damper. You can buy one from MFD, he sales a damper kit for them. I got an Steeringdamper from my old motorcycle installed. Works very good. gives you a lot better Feeling

[kgillers3]

Just now, Grennymaster said:

i got the V3 version of the MFD crosswind pedals, they are provided with threadet wholes for a damper. You can buy one from MFD, he sales a damper kit for them. I got an Steeringdamper from my old motorcycle installed. Works very good. gives you a lot better Feeling

I want to go that route for dcs, just haven't dove down that road yet. I'm a bit concerned about fixed wing but i'm sure I could figure out a nice middle ground. 

[Grennymaster]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb kgillers3:

I want to go that route for dcs, just haven't dove down that road yet. I'm a bit concerned about fixed wing but i'm sure I could figure out a nice middle ground. 

with the MFD you can detatch the Spring that centers the padels very easy so can switch between Helo an fixed wing in a few secs

 

[some1]

31 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please remember the trim options are there in special menu because of the different types of devices available to the public market. We have to make it as playable as possible, even though the device may not be like the real control set. 

Very true, especially FFB pedals are even more of a rarity than FFB joysticks

5 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

I want to go that route for dcs, just haven't dove down that road yet. I'm a bit concerned about fixed wing but i'm sure I could figure out a nice middle ground. 

My pedals (Slav Device) have a damper and a spring that is relatively easy to remove, so I just take it out for helicopter flying and install it back for aircraft. A "damper+no spring" combo is great for helicopters but not very practical for flying fixed wing. 

[kgillers3]

Just now, Grennymaster said:

with the MFD you can detatch the Spring that centers the padels very easy so can switch between Helo an fixed wing in a few secs

 

preciate it, I'll keep it in mind. 

Just now, some1 said:

My pedals (Slav Device) have a damper and a spring that is relatively easy to remove, so I just take it out for helicopter flying and install it back for aircraft. A "damper+no spring" combo is great for helicopters but not very practical for flying fixed wing. 

Yeah, I've been meaning to work it out for a while, with the hind/huey I just lock my heel into the floor and do it that way, idk, i'll figure something out. 

thanks for your input @some1 and @Grennymaster

[dburne]

57 minutes ago, Grennymaster said:

with the MFD you can detatch the Spring that centers the padels very easy so can switch between Helo an fixed wing in a few secs

 

Yeah I have the damper mod on my Crosswind Pedals and use the lighter spring.

I probably should detach the spring and give it a try with the Apache. With the lighter spring I may not need to completely detach it just loosed it up some. I am lazy though and when I go back to some Hornet flying or WWII flying I will need to reinstall the spring. Certainly may give it a try with the Apache here soon to see how I like it.

Edited March 24, 2022 by dburne

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, kgillers3 said:

I want to go that route for dcs, just haven't dove down that road yet. I'm a bit concerned about fixed wing but i'm sure I could figure out a nice middle ground. 

The damper just gives a bit resistance and "weight" to the feel. You can use it without spring and without damper for choppers. I am using a damper, but it is tuned almost to its lowest resistance. I made a quick release for the centering spring, so that I can the MFGs with spring for fixed wing and without for whirly birds.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Hiob

[kgillers3]

21 minutes ago, Hiob said:

The damper just gives a bit resistance and "weight" to the feel. You can use it without spring and without damper for choppers. I am using a damper, but it is tuned almost to its lowest resistance. I made a quick release for the centering spring, so that I can the MFGs with spring for fixed wing and without for whirly birds.

 

That’s a good idea, appreciate all the input from you guys. I’m at fault for derailing the subject, I’ll probably go down that route. Thanks again, sorry for derailing the subject @mods 

[lee1hy]

I also wrote on the MI24 forum, but DCS is a just  game and should be viewed as a PC game. We use ""joy""sticks, so we have to think about the gap / real hydluic