trouble understanding the difference between acquisition source vs sight select

[skypickle]

I watched this

and read the manual. Initially I thought an acquisition source was the gadget used to find the target. But then I read in the The manual, 'the cued line of sight reticle indicates the location of the selected acquisition source'. So an acquisition source is a location? Why dont they just say target?

I know there are different ways to get the location of the target-for example, it could be the TADS, it could be the cursor (CAQ button), it could be fixed, it could be the pilot's helmet sight (if you are the CPG), it could be the gunner's helmet sight (if you are the pilot) or it could the cryptic tech labeled '7skr' or '?00'. So that's why I thought the acquisition source was the gadget identifying the target.

But the confusion arises because they say the acquisition source can be the pilot's or CPG's sight.  So is an acquisition source really just a sight?

And when I used the sight select switch (HMD,TADS, FCR) am I not just designating which tool I am using to identify the target?

Can someone clearly and simply explain why there is an 'extra layer' in between me and the target? Why isn't the sight select switch enough? In the A10 we have SOI (which is the tech used to 'sight' the target) and SPI (the actual target in the sight). If the acquisition source is like a SPI, then it should be a location (as the quote I pulled from the manual indicates). But then why should there be a button on the MFD that allows me to set the acquisition source to a tool ( a sight) when it is a location?

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

My sentiments too. Awaiting a SME's answer

[kgillers3]

[AvroLanc]

This has been covered a lot now by everyone from Wags to every SME out there. (We’re so lucky to have so many with this module).

It is confusing but you need to have a play and read all documentation carefully. 
 

Basically forget SOI and SPI. They don’t apply here and are for jets. Don’t use that terminology. 

Remember a SIGHT is how you aim weapons. Think of a rifle. Put the sight on the target, and that’s where your bullets and missiles will go. You define the position of the target with the SIGHTs line of sight cross, TADS or HMD. Simple ehh. Later the FCR will allow you to cursor select / cycle a target (NTS) symbol and point weapons that way, but it’s still a sight. 
 

An ACQUISITION SOURCE is a way of helping you point your sight at the desired location. Think of someone guiding your rifle sights onto the desired point / target area on the range. It’s fundamentally there for acquiring the target. As you know this can commonly be a ground location, but others as well. You can slave (automatically point) your SIGHT at one one of these ACQ SOURCES. Sometimes though you only get cuing (little dots telling you which way to look) because the Apache can’t physically grab your head and move it, unlike moving the TADs or FCR centreline. 
 

The ACQ SOURCES aren’t an ‘extra layer’ between you and the target. If you removed the ACQ SOURCE concept from the whole helicopter, you could still go out and shoot up targets all day long with your 3 SIGHTS (HMD/TADS/FCR), just like the Hind or a fancy Huey. BUT….it’ll be much harder to know where to look, and more time consuming and extra effort to search and point with those 3 SIGHTS. 
 

Maybe the confusion is that a SIGHT can also be an ACQ source. (A sight can never be it’s own ACQ SOURCE though, or vice versa). But that’s just the flexibility of the system, you can get pointed to a SIGHTs LOS if it helps you acquire, but obviously situation dependant. An example would be CPG using GHS as ACQ Source and TADs as SIGHT, and slaving. Now the TADS will follow his head, and can be easily deslaved when you find a target. Later on with FCR, the pilot could set FCR as SIGHT and PHS as ACQ SOURCE, and use his head to point the centreline of the radar search area etc etc. Cool stuff.

Edited March 25, 2022 by AvroLanc

[Blackeye]

As far as I understand it

• Wherever the sight is pointed at is where your weapons will (attempt to) go.
• The Acquisition Source is simply the source of coordinates you can slave your sight to (if you want to). *

For example if you have the TADS selected as your sight and set the Acquisition Source to W02, then pressing the slave button will move the TADS (sight) to W02. If you set the ACQ source to the HMD of the pilot (or the CPG) then as long as the TADS (sight) is slaved it will follow wherever the pilot is looking at (until you unslave).

The goal here is to provide a quick way to move your sight to a specific (potentially dynamic) point. Similar to how you can slave the TGP to waypoints  - just that here you can select what you want to slave it to and the coordinates can be changing constantly.

 

* IIRC the coordinates of the ACQ source are also used to launch Hellfires at in the LOAL modes.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Blackeye

[PlainSight]

Yeah, the best way to break this down for me, was to think the slave button as the link between the ACQ source and sight.

Selected sight will point to an ACQ source when you press slave. This can be a waypoint, target point or a point on the ground where Pilots or CPGs line of sight is currently pointing. That's what's meant as the ACQ source, not the device/gadget on the helmet itself.

So when pilot sees something, you press slave to move your sight to that location and unslave it, so he can look away from that point, but sight will remain there. Lase and store the point and move the sight around.

You can set the sight to follow the ACQ source from your own line of sight. So where ever you look, TADS as sight will follow.

Edited March 25, 2022 by PlainSight

[skypickle]

@AvroLanc thank for trying to explain what seems to be a confusing topic.

Most of the videos use these words differently. You stated:

"If you removed the ACQ SOURCE concept from the whole helicopter, you could still go out and shoot up targets all day long with your 3 SIGHTS (HMD/TADS/FCR), just like the Hind or a fancy Huey. BUT….it’ll be much harder to know where to look, and more time consuming and extra effort to search and point with those 3 SIGHTS. "

Typically, in the A10, the sights we use have 'their own 'brains'. The TGP can 'remember what it locked on to. And it can be locked onto what it sees or the current waypoint. The maverick can remember what it locked on to independently. The TAD can show me the SPI as well as data from the link and all the other aircraft in my net. The HMCS can show me the TGP video, where the TGP is looking, the SPI, as well as data from the link from other aircraft. I can point my weapon to a SPI generated with TADS , HMCS, TGP

 

Your comment: 'the confusion is that a SIGHT can also be an ACQ source. ' is right on. Perhaps I need to make a list of three columns:

1st column - display device ( and how it is selected). These are  the articulated borg-like thing on the pilot's helmet next to the eyeball, the same thing that is in front of the CPG eyeball, the TEDAC, the MFDs

2nd column - sight (and how it is selected and manipulated - moved, zoomed, to which acquisition sources can it be 'slaved' to extract position data), The sights I can use are an MFD showing the TSD, an MFD showing video, the TEDAC.

3rd column - acquisition source (and how it is moved, zoomed as well as where its data can be saved). Pushing the ACQ button on the MFD gives me a list of acquisition sources

 

 

 

When I do this, then I start to see many combinations that can exist but dont make sense

Conceivably I could make a chain like this

pilot eyeball-> pilot'shelmet sight ->gunner sight -> TADS.. So what's the acquisition source in that example?

or 

CPG eyeball -> CPG helmet sight -> Pilot helmet sight -> TADS -> waypoint?

 

add PNVIS, FCR in there and the soup gets murkier.

 

And where does the TEDAC fit in? is it just a display or does it have it's own sighting system? Somewhere I read that the TEDAC has its own computer and sighting with the TEDAC is better than with the helmet.

 

 

 

@PlainSight when you press 'slave' what are you slaving to?always the acquisition source? If that's the case, what are you slaving to the acquisition source- the display next to your eyeball, the TEDAC, the PNVIS, the video on the MFD? How do you pick 1)what you are slaving and 2)what you are slaving it to

 

[AvroLanc]

35 minutes ago, skypickle said:

@AvroLanc thank for trying to explain what seems to be a confusing topic.

Most of the videos use these words differently. You stated:

"If you removed the ACQ SOURCE concept from the whole helicopter, you could still go out and shoot up targets all day long with your 3 SIGHTS (HMD/TADS/FCR), just like the Hind or a fancy Huey. BUT….it’ll be much harder to know where to look, and more time consuming and extra effort to search and point with those 3 SIGHTS. "

Typically, in the A10, the sights we use have 'their own 'brains'. The TGP can 'remember what it locked on to. And it can be locked onto what it sees or the current waypoint. The maverick can remember what it locked on to independently. The TAD can show me the SPI as well as data from the link and all the other aircraft in my net. The HMCS can show me the TGP video, where the TGP is looking, the SPI, as well as data from the link from other aircraft. I can point my weapon to a SPI generated with TADS , HMCS, TGP

 

Your comment: 'the confusion is that a SIGHT can also be an ACQ source. ' is right on. Perhaps I need to make a list of three columns:

1st column - display device ( and how it is selected). These are  the articulated borg-like thing on the pilot's helmet next to the eyeball, the same thing that is in front of the CPG eyeball, the TEDAC, the MFDs

2nd column - sight (and how it is selected and manipulated - moved, zoomed, to which acquisition sources can it be 'slaved' to extract position data), The sights I can use are an MFD showing the TSD, an MFD showing video, the TEDAC.

3rd column - acquisition source (and how it is moved, zoomed as well as where its data can be saved). Pushing the ACQ button on the MFD gives me a list of acquisition sources

 

 

 

When I do this, then I start to see many combinations that can exist but dont make sense

Conceivably I could make a chain like this

pilot eyeball-> pilot'shelmet sight ->gunner sight -> TADS.. So what's the acquisition source in that example?

or 

CPG eyeball -> CPG helmet sight -> Pilot helmet sight -> TADS -> waypoint?

 

add PNVIS, FCR in there and the soup gets murkier.

 

And where does the TEDAC fit in? is it just a display or does it have it's own sighting system? Somewhere I read that the TEDAC has its own computer and sighting with the TEDAC is better than with the helmet.

 

 

 

@PlainSight when you press 'slave' what are you slaving to?always the acquisition source? If that's the case, what are you slaving to the acquisition source- the display next to your eyeball, the TEDAC, the PNVIS, the video on the MFD? How do you pick 1)what you are slaving and 2)what you are slaving it to

 

Whoa. You’ve got yourself into a bit of a mess there. 

The best thing to do is read the early access guide to get your head around the various cockpit elements and all the acronyms.

It’s waaaay simpler than you are making out. There are 3x SIGHTS (HMD/TADS/FCR) and many ACQ SOURCES, and the current SIGHT is always being slaved to the ACQ Source, assuming you press slave. The ACQ SOURCE can be selected in a number of ways, but it’s all in the manual. It’s maybe helpful to think of the ACQ Source as a location on the ground, either a literal position or it might be the position under the HMD/TADS line of sight cross. 

In the Apache, a SENSOR is not a SIGHT. A Sensor is used as a FLIR image for flying/night navigation. Sensors are not used for pointing weapons. The PNVS is usually the pilots sensor, and the TADS can be used as the CPGs sensor. When the TADs is being used a sensor, it can’t be a Sight. (PNVS is never a sight.) So if you’re worried about weapons, ignore PNVS for now. 

…. And try to purge SPI and SOI from your brain, you’re in the Army now, not the airforce. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by AvroLanc

[Lange_666]

From the beginning i never understood what was mend by acquisition source.
When i saw the title of this topic, i thought... finally.
But after reading through this topic, it's getting even worse...

Edited March 25, 2022 by Lange_666

[kgillers3]

I didn't want to go down this road but I'll give it a go. But if you didn't understand Casmo's video I think you should just take the time and re watch it. 

So I think you're overcomplicating the concept and confusing it with A10 and other platforms and ideologies. 

A sight.  Is used to aim the weapon system.  It is tied into the aircraft. You cannot use your eye to do this because it is independent of the aircraft.  It doesn't matter if you're viewing from the HDU or the TDU in the case of the TADs because you're just viewing the video from a different monitor in a sense.  

HMD is using your helmet as a sight and the LOS or solid crosshair in the heads up display if you will is the "aimpoint"  

Regardless of those two methods the aircraft is taking the left right and up and down and applying it for alignment of the weapons for employment.  

Acquisition for all intents and purposes is a reference.  Its so you can quickly and easily reference where something is with symbology.  If it is just a line, direction, bearing from you in example the opposite crewmembers sight. Then it will just show that.  But if it is a point on the ground that's been stored in the aircrafts database i.e. a target, wp, control measure you can get range information displayed as a Nx.xx next to the box in the middle.

A sight which is the lower left of your TDU / HDU pending on how you're looking at it is what you are using to manipulate, aim, and employ weapons.  

An acquisition source located in the lower right hand corner of the TDU / HDU is a reference for you, and is up to you how you use it whether it be know where the other guy is looking, quickly reaquire the target area after turning back in, or leave it fixed.  

The slave function on the TEDAC slaves (makes the TADs follow the acquisition source) the TADs when it's being used as a sight to the acquisition source to quickly find it, then deslave so you can manipulate the sensor as you see fit. 

When in the front seat with HMD(your helmet) as the selected sight it 'slave' shows and hides the acquisition source and the cueing dots (the little dots around your cross hair that help you find the cued los or dashed crosshair).  

Sight = Aim

Acq = Reference and aide in situational awareness based off how you're using it. 

 

Deliberately not talking about FCR because it's not implemented yet 

Also I'm aware I've pretty much said the same things that are covered in casmo's video and I thought @AvroLancs explanation was pretty good. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by kgillers3

[kgillers3]

If you're still having trouble wrapping your head around it I'd suggest go in the little single player mission, drop a couple wp's or targets right in front of the aircraft with the TSD.  And play with switching between those as acq, then go front seat and play with using the tads and slaving and de slaving the tads to those.  just seeing what it does then moving on from there. Maybe you don't use it and that's fine.  

[PlainSight]

3 hours ago, skypickle said:

@AvroLanc thank for trying to explain what seems to be a confusing topic.

Most of the videos use these words differently. You stated:

"If you removed the ACQ SOURCE concept from the whole helicopter, you could still go out and shoot up targets all day long with your 3 SIGHTS (HMD/TADS/FCR), just like the Hind or a fancy Huey. BUT….it’ll be much harder to know where to look, and more time consuming and extra effort to search and point with those 3 SIGHTS. "

Typically, in the A10, the sights we use have 'their own 'brains'. The TGP can 'remember what it locked on to. And it can be locked onto what it sees or the current waypoint. The maverick can remember what it locked on to independently. The TAD can show me the SPI as well as data from the link and all the other aircraft in my net. The HMCS can show me the TGP video, where the TGP is looking, the SPI, as well as data from the link from other aircraft. I can point my weapon to a SPI generated with TADS , HMCS, TGP

 

Your comment: 'the confusion is that a SIGHT can also be an ACQ source. ' is right on. Perhaps I need to make a list of three columns:

1st column - display device ( and how it is selected). These are  the articulated borg-like thing on the pilot's helmet next to the eyeball, the same thing that is in front of the CPG eyeball, the TEDAC, the MFDs

2nd column - sight (and how it is selected and manipulated - moved, zoomed, to which acquisition sources can it be 'slaved' to extract position data), The sights I can use are an MFD showing the TSD, an MFD showing video, the TEDAC.

3rd column - acquisition source (and how it is moved, zoomed as well as where its data can be saved). Pushing the ACQ button on the MFD gives me a list of acquisition sources

 

 

 

When I do this, then I start to see many combinations that can exist but dont make sense

Conceivably I could make a chain like this

pilot eyeball-> pilot'shelmet sight ->gunner sight -> TADS.. So what's the acquisition source in that example?

or 

CPG eyeball -> CPG helmet sight -> Pilot helmet sight -> TADS -> waypoint?

 

add PNVIS, FCR in there and the soup gets murkier.

 

And where does the TEDAC fit in? is it just a display or does it have it's own sighting system? Somewhere I read that the TEDAC has its own computer and sighting with the TEDAC is better than with the helmet.

 

 

 

@PlainSight when you press 'slave' what are you slaving to?always the acquisition source? If that's the case, what are you slaving to the acquisition source- the display next to your eyeball, the TEDAC, the PNVIS, the video on the MFD? How do you pick 1)what you are slaving and 2)what you are slaving it to

 

"always the acquisition source?" Yes. That's the purpose of it.

"How do you pick 1)what you are slaving" CPG sight select on the right grip. Only TADS for now, until we get FCR.

"what you are slaving it to" always the ACQ source

"the display next to your eyeball, the TEDAC, the PNVIS, the video on the MFD?" These are all TADS repeaters. You can see TADS image on the eye piece, on TDU and on the MFD video page.

[M1Combat]

You tell sights to look in the direction of Acq Sources via "slave".  Sights are all the devices you use to look around aside from your eyeball (But the IEYEHHAADDSSS is a sight).  Sorry I can never remember how many of which letter is correct LOL :).  The only kinda confusing one is that the other person's IHADDSS can be an acq source, even though for THEM it's a sight.  As a CPG I think you can tell your selected sight "Look to where the pilot is pointing their helmet because they saw a target and they just told me they're looking at it right now".

You place Acq sources via designation or the nav system or whatever...  It's just a place of interest.

 

 

I think...  Do I have that correct???

Edited March 26, 2022 by M1Combat

[Fromthedeep]

3 hours ago, M1Combat said:

Sights are all the devices you use to look around aside from your eyeball

Currently the sights can be the HMD and the TADS for the CPG. Since the FCR isn't in the game yet, we'll have to ignore it. The easiest way to think about it is that acquisition sources are points of reference or interest that you want to acquire visually. If your selected sight is the TADS and you press slave, the TADS will move itself and look at (visually acquire or it gets "slaved") to the selected acquisition source. Since the TADS is moving on a gimballed turret, it can physically move itself to the acquisition source and remain locked. If your selected sight is the HMD, your head cannot be physically moved (without it being very uncomfortable) to the acquisition source, so you'll have to move your head follow the dots as cues to find the hashed reticle.

 

Let's look at a couple of very common scenarios.

 

1.) You're the gunner and you know that the enemy vehicles are located at target point 1. You select the TADS as your sight, your acqusition source as target point one, press slave and the TADS will automatically slave to that point.

2.) You're the pilot and your sight is your HMD. Your acqusition source is target point 1. The reticle will be displayed at the location of the target point and you'll visually acquire the targets. It will lead your focus to the correct position.

3.) You're the gunner and the pilot sees the target. You select TADS as the sight, pilot HMD as your acquisition source, press slave and then deslave. Now the TADS will be look at the point that the pilot was talking about and you can lase and store it. 

4.) You're the gunner and you want to use the TADS to scan for targets in the area. You set it as the sight and you select gunner HMD as your acqusition source and you press slave. Now, as you move your head around, your HDU will display a zoomed in image of the area you're looking at.

There are many other niche scenarios that you can think of, but these should cover the vast majority of situations. The other person's acquisition source and sight selection really doesn't matter, they are independent as of now. There are other minor interaction that you will discover through further use (like if you have the TADS as the sight and have the GHS as the acq. source and you set your sight to the HMD, your acq. source will default back to 'fixed'. And vice versa, if you use your HMD as the sight and your TADS as the acqusition source and you make the TADS the sight, the aqc. source will become fixed.) but generally this should be more than enough.

[NineLine]

Hey guys, did you get this cleared up? If not I will be happy to try and answer any further questions or pass along to someone that can.

[kgillers3]

@NineLine I vote give it a go, maybe something you say and how you understand it will help them.

[M1Combat]

I think I've got it :).

 

We may have found the Apache's "Shark Trim" though

Edited March 26, 2022 by M1Combat

[Greyman]

"by George, I think he/she's got it"

I wonder if that could that be where the AI CPG got his name? 

[BIGNEWY]

3 minutes ago, Greyman said:

I wonder if that could that be where the AI CPG got his name?

George was used in WWII by RAF pilots with the first autopilots, we will let George fly ( As in King George as he owned it  )

[skypickle]

i think i understand now why there is even the architecture of sight and acq. Because there are two people in the aircraft. Each person has his own eyepiece,and his own MFDs. Each person also has access to weapons. However there is only one pnvis and one TADS. So the first generation of this system probably was a way for the either the pilot or cpg to share these devices which became labeled acquisition sources. Because each person has his own eyepiece, his own the ability to store his own 'mark points' , and use his own MFDs,  a way was needed to give that person a label for the function that could serve this info yet be able to couple to a location on the ground derived from either the TADS(which is shared) or his stored mark points or just use the location of his head. Somewhere in the evolution of this system, someone imagined that using the location of the person's gaze (as measured by his head position) could also be a useful piece of information. So head position was added to TADS as an 'acquisition source'.  FCR will provide yet another way to get ground location data. Linked battle space data will be another acquisition source ( I think this was added to the AH-64E)

 

In summary I would define an acquisition source as any gizmo that provides ground location data. I would define 'sight' as any gizmo that passes that info to the pilot and the weapon he has selected. So a sight would be the eyepiece thingy with its weapons interface or an MFD showing the TSD or the TEDAC.

 

[AvroLanc]

56 minutes ago, skypickle said:

i think i understand now why there is even the architecture of sight and acq. Because there are two people in the aircraft. Each person has his own eyepiece,and his own MFDs. Each person also has access to weapons. However there is only one pnvis and one TADS. So the first generation of this system probably was a way for the either the pilot or cpg to share these devices which became labeled acquisition sources. Because each person has his own eyepiece, his own the ability to store his own 'mark points' , and use his own MFDs,  a way was needed to give that person a label for the function that could serve this info yet be able to couple to a location on the ground derived from either the TADS(which is shared) or his stored mark points or just use the location of his head. Somewhere in the evolution of this system, someone imagined that using the location of the person's gaze (as measured by his head position) could also be a useful piece of information. So head position was added to TADS as an 'acquisition source'.  FCR will provide yet another way to get ground location data. Linked battle space data will be another acquisition source ( I think this was added to the AH-64E)

 

In summary I would define an acquisition source as any gizmo that provides ground location data. I would define 'sight' as any gizmo that passes that info to the pilot and the weapon he has selected. So a sight would be the eyepiece thingy with its weapons interface or an MFD showing the TSD or the TEDAC.

 

 

You're getting there.....not quite but nearly.... But you're correct in that the Apache is a complicated integrated weapon system with many ways of passing information backwards and forwards between both yourself and the Sights/System, and then also between front seat and back seat. Each guy has 3 Sights and there's 2 guys, and wingmen and ground force etc. That's alot of combinations. That's why it's a bit convoluted. And we haven't even touched on sharing/handing over targets between wingmen in a flight yet.

Ohhh...TSD isn't a sight - only HMD + TADS + FCR.

Edited March 26, 2022 by AvroLanc

[cow_art]

TL;DR In my understanding, there is no extra layer compared to the A10. I guess you  can think about it like this: Selecting an acquistion source in the Apache has a very similar function as pressing "TMS Forward Long" in the A10C.

OP, if you are familiar with the A10C like your initial post suggests, it might help to think in a little more detail about what "TMS Forward Long" does in the A10. I know a lot of A10 tutorials tell you something like "if you aim your TGP at a target and press TMS Forward Long, the target becomes your SPI". While that is technically true, it's only half the story. What actually happens (to the best of my knowledge), is that TMS Forward Long designates the current SOI (your TGP in that example) as the SPI Generator. What that means is: wherever the TGP is looking, that is your SPI --> if you slew the TGP around, your SPI changes immediately (no need to press TMS Fwd Long again). Why is that? Because you have not really designated a single point as SPI, you have rather told the A10, which sensor produces the SPI.

In that sense pressing TMS Forward Long has exactly the same function as picking an Acquisition Source in the Apache. It just selects the "most important sensor", the one that is currently looking at the interesting stuff. If you want other sensors to also look at that interesting stuff, you now need to press the slave button. "China-hat Fwd long" does the same thing in the A10: it moves all sensors to the point at which the current SPI Generator is looking.

Edited March 26, 2022 by cow_art

[Jayhawk1971]

 

[skypickle]

@Jayhawk1971 you mean to tell me casmo made two videos about acquisition sources?

[Jayhawk1971]

The one I posted is a brand new one from March 26, so the answer would be "yes", I guess.