Disappointed With The Training Section

[airea]

OK, I liked the sim a lot, it is really a demanding study sim with lots of great features and a lot of effort. Thank to ED for this great software.

 

But come on guys, the training section is very boring and not really "training" because of the way it is designed. Player is very passive. I was barely keeping my eyes open in some parts because of the monotone way the flight becomes. Matt tells about the stuff, flies the chopper, you just listen. And then he says "I told everything about this stuff, now do it yourself."

 

The training section has to be much more interactive and put the player in the game. Those who played Longbow2 will understand what I mean. In LB2, the instructor was telling for instance "now turn on the TADS, lock the target by pressing this button and fire a missile". If you do not do what he says correctly, he was starting to yall at you:)

 

LB2 was a very old game (it was released even before the invention of microprocessors I suppose:P) and it had a fantastic training section.

 

Is it impossible for the BS engine to implement such an interactive training section? If so, please at least give us a better training section in the upcoming modules.

[rapid]

Yes LB2 had a very good training section i will agree with you on that. Im still waiting for the hard copy release of BS but its nice to know what to expect.

[ACUTech]

I must agree with airea. I actually learned more from the Producer's Notes then from the trainings. I was expecting something a lot more torough, or exhaustive. Especially about controlling the beast, the AP modes, the trim etc... If you don't read the FAQ or the manual, you stay in the dark... BUT, Im still enjoying every single minute of flying the Shark, and I am totally hooked right now :D

[RvETito]

The purpose of the training section is to train, not to amuse. If you can't learn anything from the tracks then I would understand your disappointment. I find them really helpfull. Except for learning the systems and operating the aircraft you may train your patience. For full enjoyment BS requires different approach, compared to other sims so far.

[Boberro]

I didn't play Longbow but I mention nice tranings from Falcon 4. Yes in my opinin interactive trainings are much better. Pause mode and clickable cockpit in this pause would be cool :D

[Acedy]

The training section has to be much more interactive and put the player in the game.

 

Well, why don't you go ahead and use the trigger system to create some more interactive training missions? Just a suggestion. :)

[kaiserb_uk]

I agree with the OP - particularly when Wags is reciting the various min/max weapon ranges it's very 'information overload', at the end of the weapon training mission I can barely keep up with the different modes and procedures. That one training mission could be four or five different training missions, concentrating on employment techniques.

 

When is Ironhand going to start making BS tutorials? :P

 

That said, it's still a great sim.

[Feuerfalke]

"Tell me and I will forget. Show me and I may remember. Involve me and I will understand." - Confucius, 450 B.C.

 

I don't know if "you may train your patience" is an adequate answer?

 

 

@ Acedy:

 

Interesting. I didn't know you can detect button-states with triggers? Like "Click start engine to continue to the next instruction point" ?

 

Well, the way I understood the OP we were not talking about life-like missions, but interactive instructions, but I may be mistaken.

[forlorn]

I love BS, I had the most intense low level flights I ever had in a simulation. But the training is really bad. I learned alot more from the producer's notes.

[Acedy]

@ Acedy:

 

Interesting. I didn't know you can detect button-states with triggers? Like "Click start engine to continue to the next instruction point" ?

 

Well, the way I understood the OP we were not talking about life-like missions, but interactive instructions, but I may be mistaken.

 

Sure you can't detect button presses and the like. I didn't say that the ME is the ideal tool to create training missions that cover all kinds of topics (interactive ramp start is a no-go of course), but I guess with some imagination and goodwill from the user you could create a quite entertaining lesson for e.g. navigation or weapons employment, using voice overs or text messages. For example you could set up a flight plan where each part of the lesson is triggered once the player arrives at the next waypoint, and if he wants to repeat a certain part he just flies to that waypont and the explanation gets triggered once again etc. Not the optimum, but it is a start.

[Feuerfalke]

Sure you can't detect button presses and the like. I didn't say that the ME is the ideal tool to create training missions that cover all kinds of topics (interactive ramp start is a no-go of course), but I guess with some imagination and goodwill from the user you could create a quite entertaining lesson for e.g. navigation or weapons employment, using voice overs or text messages. For example you could set up a flight plan where each part of the lesson is triggered once the player arrives at the next waypoint, and if he wants to repeat a certain part he just flies to that waypont and the explanation gets triggered once again etc. Not the optimum, but it is a start.

 

No doubt!

 

But e.g. before you can fix a INU-Update-Point inflight, you've already come a long way in terms of learning to handle the Shark. And as the OP, I can see some room for improvement in this part - maybe for future DCS-Addons?

[EvilBivol-1]

Although creating the training lessons took a lot of labor from a number of people, of course 22 flight recordings are not going to be enough to effectively make you into a combat helicopter pilot. However, it's one tool among a number of others, including the Producer's Notes (which were designed in large part to help users get familiar with the helicopter), the manuals, the demo tracks, and not least of all, the ED Forums. All of these are at your service as part of the product.

 

ED has indicated that in the future, they will attempt to develop a trigger-based "interactive" training system.

Edited December 15, 2008 by EvilBivol-1

[brewber19]

I think the OP makes a valid point, in that the most valuable type of training is experiential learning...

 

Explanation >> Demonstration >> Imitation

 

The current ED products can't do this, which is unfortunate but not a show-stopper. It just means the training tracks can be more challenging to learn from than a 'follow my example and we won't continue until you hit the right button' style of tutorial but...it is what it is as they say.

 

I am hoping the OP was misunderstood because otherwise the tone of responses to this thread are discouraging to say the least :( I appreciate the testers might be sensitive to less than "woohoo" feedback but would hope that constructive criticism, which is what has been offered in the OP, can be accepted with good grace?

 

EDIT: Damn it, bloody EvilB and a few others snuck in some constructive positive posts while I was mashing mine out on the keyboard...so I modify what I said and say the initial replies were destructive.

Edited December 15, 2008 by brewber19
More constructive replies to the OP later in the thread

[DragonRR]

I partially agree with the OP. I don't find the training missions boring but I would prefer them to be interactive. On the other hand they can be paused (to take notes) and you can take control at the beginning and listen to the training whilst attempting to copy the instructions (to a degree at least).

 

Despite the massive information overload I do feel that there is actually a lack of information in some areas, certain controls are mentioned but remain unexplained, this applies to the manual as well. I am still confused about the "NAV" button on the right panel, for example.

 

Having said all that.. the sim is a remarkable achievement. 10/10 imo.

[Feuerfalke]

Although creating the training lessons took a lot of labor from a number of people, of course 22 flight recordings are not going to be enough to effectively make you into a combat helicopter pilot. However, it's one tool among a number of others, including the Producer's Notes (which were designed in large part to help users get familiar with the helicopter), the manuals, the demo tracks, and not least of all, the ED Forums. All of these are at your service as part of the product.

 

ED has indicated that in the future, they will attempt to develop a trigger-based "interactive" training system.

 

No doubt all of these videos are great works. They allowed me a pretty quick start into the sim. But not all your customers salvaged every screenshot and second of video like us forum entities.

 

Well, as I posted before: If you raise the gameplay aspects and userfriendlieness to the level of the technical simulation, I have no doubt this will be the best advertisement possible to customers beyond the boundaries of this "over-complicated" genre. Very good to hear we're already on the road.

[EvilBivol-1]

FYI, the Producer's Notes will also be included on the retail DVD.

Edited December 15, 2008 by EvilBivol-1

[RobdeVries]

I start a training lesson and the moment the tutor says "welcome trainee" I hit th ESC button and after that CTRL which gives me full control of the KA-50 and the tutor just chats along with his lecture and I follow procedure as instructed. Fine way to learn..just as in real life while doing my PPL.

 

Rob

[rapid]

FYI, the Producer's Notes will also be included on the retail DVD.

 

Good call EvilBivol.

[deadsmell]

yeah, the way the cursor always lags way behind what he's saying can cause confusion. Ive found that the best way to retain info from the training tracks, is TAKE NOTES.

 

but at the same time, there are some tracks that dont even show you what he is clicking (datalink training) does not show the overhead panel on screen, so you dont see what he is pushing up there,(at least not the top row on the datalink).

 

oh well though........What can you do.

[RvETito]

Well I guess you have a point, there's what to be desired from the training system. It's hard for me to judge impartially since I'm part of the project. Training tracks might not be perfect, but it is recomended to watch them after or even while reading the manual. The later has all you need though I understand the frustration of reading 400 pages for a PC game. You might wanna know that those tracks were not 5 min job, lots of time was spent on their translation and voiceover.

[Macca]

This is actually what I used to do in Lock On. First I watched training tracks and took notes on a sheet of paper - what to do, which keys are used, etc, alt, speed, etc, and so on. Later I watched it again and later I started it again and took control.Haven't had time yet in BS but I think I'm gonna do the same.

[deadsmell]

Well I guess you have a point, there's what to be desired from the training system. It's hard for me to judge impartially since I'm part of the project. Training tracks might not be perfect, but it is recomended to watch them after or even while reading the manual. The later has all you need though I understand the frustration of reading 400 pages for a PC game. You might wanna know that those tracks were not 5 min job, lots of time was spent on their translation and voiceover.

 

I understand, and I didnt want to come across like I dont appreciate them, I just saw the thread, and figured id throw in two cents, maybe it will help make improvements in the future, maybe not.

 

One thing, I wish there was a training track that went deeper into advanced flight maneuvers. but again, theres not so oh well, no biggy.

 

however maybe when you guys get a little free time maybe you might consider a producers note that covers some of the advanced flight maneuvers?:pilotfly:

[EvilBivol-1]

If you have the English version, check out some of the Demo tracks in the Replay menu.

[deadsmell]

If you have the English version, check out some of the Demo tracks in the Replay menu.

 

I know, thats what im talking about, the pilot in the second airshow track is awesome, I want to fly like that guy.

 

Whats the maneuver called when you are like circling around your target (circle strafing), anyway yeah that demo track rocks, excellent demonstration. now how do i do that?lol.

 

Oh yeah I just wanted to add, I love this Sim!!

[EvilBivol-1]

It's called "the funnel."