Experience hovering with Brunner (or other) FFB stick?

[X-31_VECTOR]

Hi all,

I'm considering making the leap to Force feedback, specifically with the Brunner CLS-E stick base so I can keep using my Virpil grip. As I fly helos 70% of the time, I'm wondering if any of you have any feedback on how hovering feels with the Brunner (or even the Microsoft FFB sticks). 

My worry, based on some things I've read, is that there will be excess play in the "center" (or whatever stick position is trimmed to be the new center), and therefore the constant micro-adjustments made with the cyclic during hovering might be more difficult to make smoothly. Even if the positional sensors read the tiny inputs perfectly, I worry that it will feel off, e.g. a mechanical "deadzone" and then an abrupt point where the motors/belts kick in and begin to provide resistance. 

If anyone has any experience to share with the Brunner or otherwise, many thanks!

[MAXsenna]

Have the MS FFB2, feels great. I have long term plans to "mate" two of them, do the resistor mod and have an extension on it. 

What's really cool with the Huey, is that you can turn of the force trim, I usually fly like that. As for hovering I'm trying to find out if I like it best on or off. 

[Calabrone]

I fly with force trim off and hovering is more complicated, but I like it that way.

[X-31_VECTOR]

16 minutes ago, Calabrone said:

I fly with force trim off and hovering is more complicated, but I like it that way.

Thanks Calabrone. I generally only use force trim for extended periods of forward flight, unless trying to hover over a moving ship or something.

When hovering with your FFB stick (which one, btw?), do you find it to be smooth when moving around/through center? Do you find any slop or imprecision in it?  

[Calabrone]

18 hours ago, X-31_VECTOR said:

Thanks Calabrone. I generally only use force trim for extended periods of forward flight, unless trying to hover over a moving ship or something.

When hovering with your FFB stick (which one, btw?), do you find it to be smooth when moving around/through center? Do you find any slop or imprecision in it?  

I use Thrustmatser's T16000M (TWCS and TWFS), I don't use any curvature on the axes (pitch and roll), collective and pedals, so the whole system is very responsive.  I find it smooth because it allows me to use minimal movements to do hovering and you definitely have to work with sticks, collectives and pedals. You will never be able to have the precision you have in real life because the controls of a real Huey are different and there is definitely a slight inaccuracy but you can overcome it with practice and knowledge of your controls.I practice hovering every day: this is all you can do to improve and get to know your stick. Bye.

[MAXsenna]

On 3/26/2022 at 2:50 PM, Calabrone said:

I use Thrustmatser's T16000M (TWCS and TWFS), I don't use any curvature on the axes (pitch and roll), collective and pedals, so the whole system is very responsive.  I find it smooth because it allows me to use minimal movements to do hovering and you definitely have to work with sticks, collectives and pedals. You will never be able to have the precision you have in real life because the controls of a real Huey are different and there is definitely a slight inaccuracy but you can overcome it with practice and knowledge of your controls.I practice hovering every day: this is all you can do to improve and get to know your stick. Bye.

You should test it with an FFB stick. Then it gets really nice.

[Calabrone]

Right now I can't afford to change my equipment. Hi.

[MAXsenna]

6 minutes ago, Calabrone said:

Right now I can't afford to change my equipment. Hi.

Understand. Got all my MS FFB2s second hand for about 50 Euros each.

[X-31_VECTOR]

On 3/26/2022 at 9:50 AM, Calabrone said:

I use Thrustmatser's T16000M (TWCS and TWFS)

Thanks Calabrone. I misunderstood and thought you were using a force feedback stick like the MS FFB2 or the Brunner, which is what I was asking about regarding imprecision or lack of smoothness moving through center. With my current non-FFB stick, I'm very happy with the feel. I'm just worried about losing that if I switch to the Brunner. 

[MAXsenna]

9 hours ago, Calabrone said:

Right now I can't afford to change my equipment. Hi.

BTW, have you looked at the mods for making the T16000M non-centering? I saw one that only used two rubber bands.

Cheers!

[Calabrone]

11 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Understand. Got all my MS FFB2s second hand for about 50 Euros each.

Point me to where and I'll look at them just to get to know them.  Thank you MAXsenna.

8 hours ago, X-31_VECTOR said:

Thanks Calabrone. I misunderstood and thought you were using a force feedback stick like the MS FFB2 or the Brunner, which is what I was asking about regarding imprecision or lack of smoothness moving through center. With my current non-FFB stick, I'm very happy with the feel. I'm just worried about losing that if I switch to the Brunner. 

A proverb says: "He who leaves the old road for the new, often does not find himself well! ". Then maybe you'll be happy if you take it. Bye.

[Calabrone]

2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

BTW, have you looked at the mods for making the T16000M non-centering? I saw one that only used two rubber bands.

Cheers!

I tried cable ties but it was not a good idea, the stick was completely ungovernable.

MAXsenna your nickname reminds me of the great Ayrton Senna. 
Have you by chance tried the UH-60L? If so, tell me how it behaves because I find it really unmanageable. Thank you.

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, Calabrone said:

Point me to where and I'll look at them just to get to know them.  Thank you MAXsenna.

I got all mine from https://www.finn.no in Norway. About 20 was for sale the past two years, and I snagged five of them.

53 minutes ago, Calabrone said:

I tried cable ties but it was not a good idea, the stick was completely ungovernable.

Ah, that's too bad. I was going to try with 2/4 RC dampers, but then I got the MS FFB2, and never looked back.

55 minutes ago, Calabrone said:

MAXsenna your nickname reminds me of the great Ayrton Senna. 

HAHA! Yeah, my given name is Mats. (Same as Wags, Mats <- Matteus = Matthew -> Matt), and some Brazilian friends pronounced it at Max (Xburgers anyone?), and they said my driving reminded them of Senna (RIP), (No stopping for red lights at night in Fortaleza). So they came up with Maxsenna, and I thought it was cool, so I stuck with it. 25th anniversary coming up...

1 hour ago, Calabrone said:

Have you by chance tried the UH-60L? If so, tell me how it behaves because I find it really unmanageable. Thank you.

Yes! I have! Loving it. Can't wait to see it developed further!
There obviously are some issues, and FFB (trimming) doesn't work at all with it (Almost same issue as the Gazelle), but to overcome that I use a 3rd party app called simFFB, that overcome the issue.
I find it's very easy to fly, but I guess the FFB sort of helps out. Actually did the refueling mission on the first try.
It still gets a little too easy into VRS if you don't pay attention.
Did you watch that flight engineer's take on it?

Cheers!

[Calabrone]

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

I got all mine from https://www.finn.no in Norway. About 20 was for sale the past two years, and I snagged five of them.

Ah, that's too bad. I was going to try with 2/4 RC dampers, but then I got the MS FFB2, and never looked back.

HAHA! Yeah, my given name is Mats. (Same as Wags, Mats <- Matteus = Matthew -> Matt), and some Brazilian friends pronounced it at Max (Xburgers anyone?), and they said my driving reminded them of Senna (RIP), (No stopping for red lights at night in Fortaleza). So they came up with Maxsenna, and I thought it was cool, so I stuck with it. 25th anniversary coming up...

Yes! I have! Loving it. Can't wait to see it developed further!
There obviously are some issues, and FFB (trimming) doesn't work at all with it (Almost same issue as the Gazelle), but to overcome that I use a 3rd party app called simFFB, that overcome the issue.
I find it's very easy to fly, but I guess the FFB sort of helps out. Actually did the refueling mission on the first try.
It still gets a little too easy into VRS if you don't pay attention.
Did you watch that flight engineer's take on it?

Cheers!

Where did you find it? Take care.

[MAXsenna]

Where did you find it? Take care.

Finn.no, it's like a market place in Norway.
Ebay might suit internationals better, but if you want, I can keep a watch.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Rifter]

I have two MS FFB2 sticks. One in original configuration and one heavily modified with extension and resistor mod and a B8-grip.

For both there is no imprecision at any position when making micro movements on the stick while force trim off. Feels like a good non-FFB joystick with removed springs. It does have some friction to it though, meaning that it stays in position even when I let go.

Using force trim arrests the stick precisely at the desired trim position without any deadzone or unpleasant breakout force when moving out of trim position.

 

[X-31_VECTOR]

On 4/9/2022 at 6:32 PM, Rifter said:

I have two MS FFB2 sticks. One in original configuration and one heavily modified with extension and resistor mod and a B8-grip.

For both there is no imprecision at any position when making micro movements on the stick while force trim off. Feels like a good non-FFB joystick with removed springs. It does have some friction to it though, meaning that it stays in position even when I let go.

Using force trim arrests the stick precisely at the desired trim position without any deadzone or unpleasant breakout force when moving out of trim position.

 

Very helpful, thanks!

[Berniyh]

On 3/25/2022 at 6:31 PM, X-31_VECTOR said:

Hi all,

I'm considering making the leap to Force feedback, specifically with the Brunner CLS-E stick base so I can keep using my Virpil grip. As I fly helos 70% of the time, I'm wondering if any of you have any feedback on how hovering feels with the Brunner (or even the Microsoft FFB sticks). 

My worry, based on some things I've read, is that there will be excess play in the "center" (or whatever stick position is trimmed to be the new center), and therefore the constant micro-adjustments made with the cyclic during hovering might be more difficult to make smoothly. Even if the positional sensors read the tiny inputs perfectly, I worry that it will feel off, e.g. a mechanical "deadzone" and then an abrupt point where the motors/belts kick in and begin to provide resistance. 

If anyone has any experience to share with the Brunner or otherwise, many thanks!

A bit late to the party, but better late then never, right?

I do own a Brunner CLS-E since 2 years or so. Previously I used a Warthog and before that a Thrustmaster 16000M. I was never quite happy with the Warthog, hovering was a bit painful, but that's the case for many people from what I've read over the years. The 16000M in comparison was much easier to hover, but there were quiet a few other things I didn't like about it, so I gave it away.

Anyway, with the Brunner it changed, for the better. The precision at which you can make input is incredible, hovering is so much easier. With the Brunner I can also handle the twitchy AS350 in XP11 much better. Of course, keep in mind, that for FFB devices, the precision at which you can make micro-adjustments depends on the force curvature, so depending on your settings, your experience might differ. Just like a stronger/weaker spring in a spring-centered base like the Virpil or VKB will alter your experience. The great thing about an FFB device is that you can alter this curve without changing any of the hardware.

The hardware trim of the joystick is great, I use it on a regular basis. There are multiple ways to achieve a recentering, e.g. by pressing a button to reset the center (of zero force) to the current position, but also you can just move the center with a coolie like in the A10. I usually use the coolie hat to do it, for the main reason that you avoid having force spikes. (although I should add that there are settings in the profile manager to define how fast the force center is changed, but I've not been using that so far)

Just one reminder, in case you don't know: the CLS-E is not designed to be used with an extension rod, to mount it in the center like in a real helicopter. The servos cannot sustain the necessary torque for such operation. Also, there have been reports of the device overheating, something which I so far have not experienced, but I'm not using an extension rod. They also sell the CLS-P for such application, but the price for this one is out of this world, only for professional application, I'd say.

Would I buy the CLS-E again? Definitely, yes. It changed flying helicopters for me for the better. But the fun comes at a high price, I must admit.

[X-31_VECTOR]

On 8/17/2022 at 7:25 AM, Berniyh said:

A bit late to the party, but better late then never, right?

I do own a Brunner CLS-E since 2 years or so. Previously I used a Warthog and before that a Thrustmaster 16000M. I was never quite happy with the Warthog, hovering was a bit painful, but that's the case for many people from what I've read over the years. The 16000M in comparison was much easier to hover, but there were quiet a few other things I didn't like about it, so I gave it away.

Anyway, with the Brunner it changed, for the better. The precision at which you can make input is incredible, hovering is so much easier. With the Brunner I can also handle the twitchy AS350 in XP11 much better. Of course, keep in mind, that for FFB devices, the precision at which you can make micro-adjustments depends on the force curvature, so depending on your settings, your experience might differ. Just like a stronger/weaker spring in a spring-centered base like the Virpil or VKB will alter your experience. The great thing about an FFB device is that you can alter this curve without changing any of the hardware.

The hardware trim of the joystick is great, I use it on a regular basis. There are multiple ways to achieve a recentering, e.g. by pressing a button to reset the center (of zero force) to the current position, but also you can just move the center with a coolie like in the A10. I usually use the coolie hat to do it, for the main reason that you avoid having force spikes. (although I should add that there are settings in the profile manager to define how fast the force center is changed, but I've not been using that so far)

Just one reminder, in case you don't know: the CLS-E is not designed to be used with an extension rod, to mount it in the center like in a real helicopter. The servos cannot sustain the necessary torque for such operation. Also, there have been reports of the device overheating, something which I so far have not experienced, but I'm not using an extension rod. They also sell the CLS-P for such application, but the price for this one is out of this world, only for professional application, I'd say.

Would I buy the CLS-E again? Definitely, yes. It changed flying helicopters for me for the better. But the fun comes at a high price, I must admit.

Thanks very much for these helpful insights! As it turns out, I am installing a flight simulator in one of my company's facilities, and I've purchased a Brunner CLS-E that I plan to try there. Thus I'll get to test drive it (once we have it up and running). I suspect I'll wind up getting one of my own.

Thanks for the tip on the extension. I had initially purchased a Thrustmaster F-18 grip to use with it, but I think it's too heavy and I'll wind up going with a Virpil grip simply to avoid overtaxing the motors. I had purchased extensions as well, but it sounds like I'd do well to avoid using them.  

[Berniyh]

On 8/26/2022 at 8:07 PM, X-31_VECTOR said:

Thanks very much for these helpful insights! As it turns out, I am installing a flight simulator in one of my company's facilities, and I've purchased a Brunner CLS-E that I plan to try there. Thus I'll get to test drive it (once we have it up and running). I suspect I'll wind up getting one of my own.

Thanks for the tip on the extension. I had initially purchased a Thrustmaster F-18 grip to use with it, but I think it's too heavy and I'll wind up going with a Virpil grip simply to avoid overtaxing the motors. I had purchased extensions as well, but it sounds like I'd do well to avoid using them.  

It might be possible to use it with an extension, if you restrict the maximum forces it may use.

If you're only after a precise joystick featuring hardware trime, it should be alright then, since you don't want to have strong forces in a heli stick anyway. At least if you ensure that the extension that long (maybe 10cm or so). If, however, you want to experience strong FFB effects due to wind etc., then an extension might be a bad choice.

Personally, I'm actually not a big fan of center-mounted stick anyway, so for me it just goes to the right side like in an F22. With a proper support of the arm, I'm still able to control the helicopters at very high precision. No center-mount, no extension required.

But of course I understand that many others prefer the more realistic positioning of the base.