oze's DCS Helios AH-64D Apache Multiseat Touchpit/Touch-Screen Profile

[osram]

v. 0.0.5 has been released! (File-Download, SwitchPit or DCS-Update instructions in initial Topic-Post or included installation readme)

Changelog:

v. 0.0.5

- Added Wipers for PLT/CPG (very important)
- Added CMWS for PLT
- Added Open/Close canopy for PLT/CPG
- Added Ext Lights for PLT and Int Lights for PLT/CPG
- Added switch/toggle-panel functionality and Engine section for PLT
- Added EUFD for PLT/CPG

[Goblin 1-1]

Awesome thank you!

[OldRavenNL]

Very Nice! 

Got it running, think this is the way to go for me with the AH-64. Going to find me a touchscreen for this.

[Devrim]

2 hours ago, OldRavenNL said:

Going to find me a touchscreen for this

Hey. If you already have a spare monitor (like me), you can convert it to a touchscreen monitor.

A new touchscreen monitor is very expensive for me. So, I'll buy a touchscreen glass and stick it "on" to my 21.5" monitor that I'm not using it currently. Just plug the USB, that's it.

I mean "I hope" it will work.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Devrim

[OldRavenNL]

2 hours ago, Devrim said:

Hey. If you already have a spare monitor (like me), you can convert it to a touchscreen monitor.

A new touchscreen monitor is very expensive for me. So, I'll buy a touchscreen glass and stick it "on" to my 21.5" monitor that I'm not using it currently. Just plug the USB, that's it.

I mean "I hope" it will work.

 

I don't have a spare monitor

I plan on getting one to use as a "dashboard"

I have a vkb gunfighter and plan on using the mount with extension so I can mount the touchscreen in front of me on the mount in the same place it would be in the cockpit.

Just have to figure out the size

Edited April 7, 2022 by OldRavenNL

[Chrischan]

Hi guys, 

MFD-Export costs me about 30 fps - nearly a third of my total. Helios without export only 3-5 FPS. 

How about you? Does it make sense to setup a remote PC to gain fps or will it stay the same because of the exports? 

[osram]

That's an interesting option I haven't heard about yet @Devrim- Let us know how it turns out.
Obviously. Multiseat TouchPit is the one and only. The only way! @OldRavenNLWelcome to the darrrrrkkk... side!
I hope you're enjoying the cozy shadows.

I haven't tried much with this yet. But afaik an option might be to disable the in-game cockpit-rendering entirely.
If things don't "work" in unexpected ways. It should have a positive effect to at least not cost too many extra fps. @ChrischanSince you have quite a noticeable difference - Would also be a good occasion to test and let other people know.

Maybe following these indications. (As usual I'd always backup any files before testing and editing)
 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by osram

[OldRavenNL]

I've been doing some testing with using an I-Pad pro 13" as a touchscreen display.

It works, but there are some problems with this route.

-The I-pad uses a weird resolution, so putting it on it's native resolution makes it much wider then my main display having to make my gfx card work harder

-I'm trying Spacedeck as a wireless connection over my network so my screen is not attached to my pc this way. At full resolution the delay is too high with DCS so I changed resolution on the I-pad to 1024 x something. It's running pretty good with minimal latency this way but the resolution is a bit too low for my liking to be able to read all the text on the MPD's

I'm going to see if using Duet display with a cable solves the latency issue.

All in all I'm really positive about this..  size wise I think I will be looking for a 15 or even 17" touchscreen. But the 13 of the I-Pad is actually big enough for comfort.

It also seems Spacedeck has some sort of touch issue due to the latency..  it doesn't always want to register the presses on screen very well..

 

[roots]

@OldRavenNL make sure you've set the trigger delay as mentioned earlier in this thread - it solved my issue. i had to use around 300ms

 

"In the Helios Control Center there is a retrigger "delay" setting in ms when you open it's addition options."

[OldRavenNL]

@rootsthanx, I will try that.

 

Just came back from testing it with Duet display and that works a hell of a lot better then with spacedeck.

Used a wired connection with Duet, and the nice thing is that I have more resolution options for the I-Pad display this time. So I can tweak that if I loose too much performance on the highest resolution.

Works nice, tried it with the CPG seat. My feeling is that a 13" display is a tad too small for comfort with the entire layout like it is. 

I think when using my I-Pad pro I would like a layout with just the Left and Right MPD on screen scaled to fit, so no TADS display for the CPG. I plan on maybe doing a seperate TADS display.

Still going to see If I can score a cheap 15 or 17" touchscreen for this..  That would be perfect!

[Goblin 1-1]

I was able to get everything working thanks to your guide but now my brightness controls for the MPD's are not working even in the cockpit.  Any idea why? 

[osram]

12 hours ago, Goblin 1-1 said:

I was able to get everything working thanks to your guide but now my brightness controls for the MPD's are not working even in the cockpit.  Any idea why? 

@OldRavenNL For "all-inclusive" use, including comfortable MFD-display my recommendation for this purchase or upgrade is: Go as big and with the highest quality you can asap. Don't be like me and "upgrade" from unit to unit multiple times to still not be happy. Obviously touch, control, feedback. Is already amazing - But the last comfort/benefit is enough size to have those MFD's on the touch be your one and only. What I DON'T recommend at all are "portable"/notebook extension monitors at all. For this application things like the AOC 16T2 (1920 x 1080 Pixels, 15.60 ") are really BAD. Only 6 bit colour (awful!), the battery/hdmi/usb-c design will lead to frequent disconnects. Could have sworn some fella in here ordered a Hannspree? But who knows, maybe I can't even use a search-function anymore. Actually that size would have been acceptable as a very bare "minimum". Just the technical limitations/quality made it a no-go for helios and MFD's.
But still; BIGGER is BETTER. In this case, for sure Viewsonics have nice, flexible angle-stands that can be compacted strongly for limited-space or "inverted" use. (Mine is cushioned and resting on it's top edge... while the stand is fully bound together and retracted, to fit under the top, main Viewsonic) I don't think any other Touch-Brand with often bulky or rigid stands, would have made this possible on such limited space. Using my extra 2-3 "tray" standing "desk" extension.

Viewsonic Elite XG270QG (2560 x 1440 Pixels, 27 ")
over an
Viewsonic TD2455 (24", Full HD)

Neomounts by Newstar






@Goblin 1-1 What do you mean by BRT controls not "working" specifically? The Helios' profile "turn" function? Or can you turn the knobs in cockpit and/or helios but you don't see any results? I've been theorizing briefly about the possibility of a helios interface having an interruptive effect on actual cockpit functionality. It's actually possible, but would have to be almost "intentional" or with a very erratic implementation. I believe. Haven't noticed any comparable issues when using the profile so far.

Please note that usually touch-screens at least have lower brightness and dynamics - so it can be different "ranges" you end up using to "calibrate" desired BRT, contrast, levels etc. There's usually a difference between in-game cockpit MPD image "dynamics" and exported ones. Potentially even missing "optimizations" regarding viewport exports and "brightness" etc on the DCS end. So depending on devices, quite a few things can play into it.

Especially for the Apache in my experience; the "BRT" function of Left and Right MFD are extremely marginal. Even in-cockpit, you actually have to look real close to notice any difference from max. to min. What has a much larger influence/effect is the actual "VID" button. Even when it's not necessarily about "Video" display in the selected MFD.

Also all knobs use the new "radial-precise" control method implemented with 1.6 I believe. You drag the radial "out" and turn it around with held, sweeping motion. Enables slightly "different" angles to be used on the fly, somewhat. And they just feel more precise and way faster than the classic modes. Should the output device or OS have issues with that type of control; They can easily be customized oneself in the right-hand properties panel, changing the "input-type" from "radial-precise" for each knob to your own prefernece or something more classic, then saving the profile in the Editor and restarting/starting it in the control center.

Do they "turn" correctly or at all in both directions? DCS ◄ ► Helios.
If you truly have "input/output" problems I'd be surprised. Unless you modified/edited the profile in some way. Are you using the hif.json lua-interface that came with my zip? The current one? Should that kind of issue be going on probably better to hit me up on discord so we can look into it. oze#2672

Edited April 9, 2022 by osram

[OldRavenNL]

@osramThanx for the Touch info. I have been looking at these 15.6" screens thinking it might be sufficient.

But when measuring when I sit down compared to my I-Pad pro (13") , for your layout with both mpd's and the tedac I think 17" is the minimum size to go for.

I'm going to look around if I can find an actual 17" touch screen that is not as bad as the one from AOC you showed, maybe I know someone who can lend me one to test before I commit to buying one.

 

Another question I have about your layout. Can I make a layout based on your layout with just the left and right mpd? I have never modded anything in Helios before so that is why I'm asking. Can I simply duplicate and rename your profile to move stuff around and remove portions of it without messing up your profile? I like to try just the MPD's on the I-Pad to see how they hold up for size.

[osram]

Yes you can just copy/rename the file, edit, move or delete elements as you please. if you edit the viewport sizes in their respective "panels", reposition things etc. and just save the profile reset or set the monitor setup indication - it will also export a new monitor-setup file based on the new MFD sizes and positions.

If anyone creates clean/modified alternatives, maybe for mobile I can accredit and include them in the main post as well. With some form of exchange/teamwork, discussion and verification. What I wouldn't like are minimally modified versions redistributed by other people via other channels. Which might then create additional support requests for entirely different mistakes, versions or issues that possibly end up with questions directed to me eitherway. In any case or form consent/request has to be requested and granted.

Always open to help and assist somewhat as well. I'd just prefer that to happen over voice and discord though. Certainly easier than having to cover all ends in my usual text-walls.

Edited April 9, 2022 by osram

[Goblin 1-1]

Thanks for reply! My knobs turn from 0-100% in cockpit and helios panel but maybe only 5% change in brightness.  With other profile like Bunnys I get 100% adjustment from the knobs.  Also the day/night knob barely does anything now as far as brightness change.  Overall the exported mfds are much brighter now and arent nearly as dark as default.  Its actually great during the day but at night they are too bright and I cant adjust or change to night mode.  I did not change your bindings or JSON file but did move assets around the screens and added some as I have 3 monitors and wanted to spread your template around them.  You did great job with this guide btw.

Im still experimenting and learning the software but I put the left mfd on my left monitor etc. for now.  Could moving stuff around break it?  Everything seems to work great except im not getting the full 0-100% adjustment now even though the knobs themselves do indeed turn as they should.  

Edited April 10, 2022 by Goblin 1-1

[osram]

That's very interesting and a very good find @Goblin 1-1 I really thought it to be the behaviour or limitation of the Apache, but seems like I did not apply this AH-64D/DCS function or data-structure correctly after all. Not that this has much to do with software dev, but that side is comparable - Hard or better; impossible to dev and test things at the same time. That's why back in the days there were dedicated alpha/beta-testers. Since it's always tedious and dry. Sometimes they would even get some compensation or pay. Crazy eh? All of that is too expensive nowadays. We, the consumers are beta-testers for early-access - And even fully released games/software.

Interesting that it moves correctly for the visuals and animation, but uses the wrong value "scale" underneath. Already pretty sure I visually see where the problem is in my mind. Remember something. I will re-check, test and release a little hotfix.

Obviously you will be accredited, I am very thankful for such feedback. That usually only comes when people truly start using or learning things in a deeper sense.
I like your progress and solution-attempts so far. If you can align the content and style somewhat more with the original Multiseat Touchpit - I wouldn't mind having a session on discord together - So we can possibly release a verified, tested and optimized version for mobile users. If you like.

 

[osram]

Uhm I have rechecked. On the screenshot your VID button is not set to the max. Are you sure you tested/compared with VID on max. in all comparisons?
There might be an issue I'm looking into and testing - However from what I see the difference should certainly not make like 95% in brightness difference.
It's actually rather marginal. Anyways, good input. I'm on it.

Seems rather hard to test so far. It strongly depends on the brightness of the displays as well; Set another settings brt/con profile for my secondary touch now - And it's even brighter than a rather bright monitor-setting on my primary monitor already. That shows how relative it is; What I notice though is that the viewport does not seem to jump between NT/DAY at all, compared to the cockpit. Just hard to say if it's due to brightness limits or something. I tested another setup for the profile and interface-data as well. I had initially switched the argument-values since my Modal Day/NT/Mono Knobs were already set up for wrong/reversed NT/DAY state and afaik it should only matter for the interface to lua. The DCS side of things should usually work with the "argument-value" mainly. But haven't looked into that specific function much yet.

Also I'm not sure if you use two "overlaid" PLT/CPG viewports at the same X/Y position or just PLT/CPG separately at different locations or in separate profiles. At least for other, simpler types of overlaid viewports the BRT can also act wierd and inconsistenly. Not sure if you tested against bunny's newest version. Or if that version has PLT/CPG viewports at the same X/Y position as well.

So as you see, even a single knob and it's brightness with the layers of factors can quickly become more challenging than expected. I can offer to send you a profile which should have the exact same data and profile/content for you to test on your end. Even though I believe that little change should not actually matter.

And then again; Testing or discussing these things is probably easier on discord.
Here it's just really painful to explain in detail.

Edited April 10, 2022 by osram

[Goblin 1-1]

I have tested on different profiles.  Map and video page uses the brightness/video knobs for adjustment.  Weapons page/engine info page is only affected by brightness knob and not video knob.   By default I can turn down brightness on engine page and it will disappear.   With the switchpit profile I cannot get the engine/weapon page to dissapear like that.  Turned all the way down they are too bright at night.   I will post more pics later.  Here is pic of right mfd I used Bunnys profile on.  Knobs and adjustments behave normally.  But like I said I'm just experimenting for now.   Oh and I'm also not using plt and cpg on top of each other at x,y.  I have separate plt/cpg profiles 

   I think you are giving me too much credit lol.  Im really a noob with this stuff

Edited April 10, 2022 by Goblin 1-1

[OldRavenNL]

@Goblin 1-1what profile is that you are using?

 

Nevermind, I see it’s Bunny’s

Edited April 12, 2022 by OldRavenNL

[osram]

@Goblin 1-1I don't think so. The appreciation is deserved; As so far you are one of the first to actually work with the profile in a practical manner and provide some actual, substantial feedback to potential "issues" etc.

I have a suspicion; I presume you use an older version of BunnyClark's profile. Or your own modified versions of his and/or my profile.
Afaik his older versions are separate - But his newest version is a combined PLT/CPG helios profile as well.

I have put quite some effort in reproducing and pinpointing this issue and adjusting things.
Can you try using his newest update, combined PLT/CPG. And tell me what happens with the behaviour of the BRT knobs?

[313_Paegas]

@osram @Bunny Clark did you find solution for this issue?

- DCS multiseat modules currently do not support positioning the PLT/CPG MFD’s on the same X/Y position:

or is it on DCS side?

 

[osram]

Being a dude that dislikes uncertainty, missing clarity and confusing forms of communication; (Be that in life, or on "occasion" on DCS forums as well..) 
Even if I have quite an associative mind and usually try to cover many if not all ends.
I'm not quite sure how to communicate or put things more clearly?

Edited April 16, 2022 by osram

[Bunny Clark]

48 minutes ago, 313_Paegas said:

@osram @Bunny Clark did you find solution for this issue?

- DCS multiseat modules currently do not support positioning the PLT/CPG MFD’s on the same X/Y position:

or is it on DCS side?

This is a DCS issue. As far as I am aware, there is nothing we can do by editing display lua files to solve it. 

I'm not a programmer, someone with more knowledge and experience may be able to find away around the DCS limitation, but a "proper" fix will need to wait on ED. 

[osram]

Obviously!

- DCS multiseat modules currently do not support positioning the PLT/CPG MFD’s on the same X/Y position:

I'm not sure. or maybe Comic Sans would somewhat help people to actually read what's written in front of them. On the screen?

Edited April 16, 2022 by osram

[Devrim]

Maybe you can do something like this with different coordinates on the same monitor but I say that this is useless unless you have got 24" or bigger monitor.

I tried this on my 18" monitor and it's not a good idea.

Other than this, we're waiting for a solution from ED's side.