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Rearm and refuel- empty external tanks


jed40

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If you need to do a quick turnaround in the F16:

1. Drop externals

2. DO NOT ask for refuel, just ask for rearm including fueltanks.

3. "Rearm complete"

4. Take off, drop external tanks...and magically the fuel is in internal tanks.

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55 minutes ago, BigMac.no said:

If you need to do a quick turnaround in the F16:

1. Drop externals

2. DO NOT ask for refuel, just ask for rearm including fueltanks.

3. "Rearm complete"

4. Take off, drop external tanks...and magically the fuel is in internal tanks.

Can you make a bug report with a short track?

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On 5/19/2022 at 9:47 AM, BigMac.no said:

If you need to do a quick turnaround in the F16:

1. Drop externals

2. DO NOT ask for refuel, just ask for rearm including fueltanks.

3. "Rearm complete"

4. Take off, drop external tanks...and magically the fuel is in internal tanks.

Yes, because the tanks always rearm full - just like the mission editor.

On 5/19/2022 at 10:43 AM, Furiz said:

Can you make a bug report with a short track?

It's not a bug, I'm pretty sure this is intentional or at most a missing feature, this is how it's always worked at least.

You can't control the level of fuel in the external tanks, they are always full if you're rearming with them (EDIT: unless the option is there to refuel with empty tanks).

Personally, I'd love to see an enhanced fuel editor, that allows you to edit the amount of fuel in each tank where applicable, if you desire (obviously the total fuel slider should be kept).

This would also allow us to do away with having separate empty and full tanks.


Edited by Northstar98
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A slider for external tanks or just add a "fuel tank (empty )" option on the load menu. Like it is now I need to do two reloads in order to reload the aircraft with the full fuel tanks.

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  • 2 months later...
  • ED Team
1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

Hi, checking how is this progressing? thx

I dont have any news to share and I dont expect to for a while. 

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I tried again after some months and can confirm that, if you open the AAR refueling door before requesting chief for refuel, the external tanks get filled correctly (I tried today and it worked).

To be completely honest, I dropped them in flight, so I don't know if it's the same when you do not drop them, I'll try ASAP and post an update.

Moreover, after a bit of research on several technical docs I found around the Internet, this seems to be the correct and intended behavior (opening the hatch depressurizes the fuel circuit, which is necessary to ensure that fuel can flow into the external tanks too)... so maybe this is not a bug at all, sorry for crying "wolf!" maybe too soon.

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It just gets some fuel, maybe a little, maybe a lot. It depends how much fuel goes into internal tanks. It's a 1:1 ratio. If you are adding 500 lbs with slider then 500 lbs goes into external tank and 500 lbs goes into internal tank. This is not a reliable way to fill external tanks completely.

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I realized that with AAR doors open the refuel ration on the internal tanks and ext tanks is 1:1 as Frederf said, so if you want your external tanks full you should burn fuel to below 2800, then you have enough space in internals to fully refuel external as well.

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15 hours ago, BlueRaven said:

I tried again after some months and can confirm that, if you open the AAR refueling door before requesting chief for refuel, the external tanks get filled correctly...

I tried that but it does not work.

Without dropping them.

If you drop them, they will get refilled if you will add them again, same goes if you remove them 1st and add them then again (while on the ground).

But it might add just as much as @Frederf said. Which is not OK.

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1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

I tried that but it does not work.

It does work,

but your internal tanks need to be below 2800lbs to have them fully refueled. If internal tanks are at for example 4000lbs it wont refuel external tanks to full load.

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3 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

Is there any particular reason why bellow 2800lbs?

Yes, because, as said above, the refuel ratio between internal and external tanks in DCS is 1:1, so as much as it goes in internal tanks goes in external tanks, and when internal tanks are full the refuel process finishes. If internals are full before ext tanks are filled up, ext tanks obviously wont be fully filled cause refueling will stop.

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5 hours ago, Furiz said:

Yes, because, as said above, the refuel ratio between internal and external tanks in DCS is 1:1, so as much as it goes in internal tanks goes in external tanks, and when internal tanks are full the refuel process finishes. If internals are full before ext tanks are filled up, ext tanks obviously wont be fully filled cause refueling will stop.

Indeed is does work. I landed with 2750lbs, and it filled up to 11800lbs - almost full 🙂

I guess I would have to consume down to 2500 to refuel full - but this is just a minor thing. thx mate.

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12 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

thx mate.

glad it worked;D

 

Watching those videos I posted above, cant figure out from them if they filled up full or not but I saw AAR light came on on one of those jets so I guess AAR door is open, but then we can't know if they were below 2500 or not and if their ext tanks were filling up even if internals were full.

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On 3/27/2022 at 8:31 AM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi SkHiTech

this is correct as is at the moment. For the external tanks to be refuelled they have to be removed currently.

We are considering adding a fuel slider for external tanks. 

thanks

not only should that be a thing, but IMHO empty tanks should be available in the loadout selection.  That way if the mission starts in the air, you don't somehow magically have 12,000lbes of fuel and full external tanks.

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In any case I think fuel in ext tanks should be filled up regardless of the amount of fuel in internal tanks, reason being those tanks are depressurized and fuel is pumped under pressure ofc, I think we should have ext tanks filled up to full.

Same happens when AAR, in air those ext tanks get fully filled regardless of fuel amount in internal tanks. It should be the same on the ground.

It is the same process of pumping fuel into the jet after all, just different fuel receive location.

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Bogey Dope has a great video on this. He's a former Viper Crew Chief. 

tl;dr: You have to open the refueling door on the ground. It's working correctly and as intended in DCS.

My $0.02: it would be nice to have the option to add empty tanks in the editor, as others have already mentioned. 

 

 


Edited by Vortex225
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I did a test, set up 0% internal fuel with 2 ext tanks, it pulled the fuel from ext tanks to internal tanks (4880lbs was the total then), and when I refueled it didn't fill up to 12000lbs (AAR door open) as it does when you do AAR, it stopped with ext tanks not full, had 9895lbs when it stopped refueling.

 

Refueling.trk

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On 8/18/2022 at 9:28 AM, Frederf said:

Vortex, try filling two empty 370s when airplane internal is 6500 lbs.

Will do. I'll test it on my next flight. Thanks!

 

@Furiz That would suggest there is a bug. I wasn't aware it wouldn't fill once the correct procedure was followed (i.e., AAR door open).


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It's not a bug in that it's not counter to programmer intent. The slider is not designed to do anything with external fuel tanks, just internal fuel. There's no way intended to fill external tanks by ground service. The fact that there is "back flow" to external while filling internal (specific F-16 behavior) is is an unintended side effect (accident) due to how the system is modeled. When being filled the F-16 is partitioning the incoming fuel in a 1:1 ratio between internal and bags and the refueling continues until internal reaches target. Whether this fills bags depends on space in bags, how much current internal fuel fraction is, and how much much final internal fuel fraction is.

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Behavior:
Fuel level in external tanks remains at zero after rearming and refueling. 
Total fuel count is at 7200. 

Conditions:
Both single-player and multiplayer user made mission. 
F-16 spawn cold on ramp (both client and player slot)
Spawn with fuel tanks already on aircraft.
Drop tanks remain on aircraft through entire flight. 
Bug appears on different computers in different parts of the world. 
Removing and replacing the tanks (Two rearming's) appears to fix the issue temporarily.

Speculation:
The code that checks if a pylon needs to be replaced during the rearming process is not recognizing empty tanks as needing replacement, or tanks are not being registered as being empty appropriately. 

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2 minutes ago, GeekyBoi said:

Behavior:
Fuel level in external tanks remains at zero after rearming and refueling. 
Total fuel count is at 7200. 

Conditions:
Both single-player and multiplayer user made mission. 
F-16 spawn cold on ramp (both client and player slot)
Spawn with fuel tanks already on aircraft.
Drop tanks remain on aircraft through entire flight. 
Bug appears on different computers in different parts of the world. 
Removing and replacing the tanks (Two rearming's) appears to fix the issue temporarily.

Speculation:
The code that checks if a pylon needs to be replaced during the rearming process is not recognizing empty tanks as needing replacement, or tanks are not being registered as being empty appropriately. 

Hi, 

this is known and is something we may look to change in the future, but it affects all modules not just the viper, for now it is a wish list item. 

thank you

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Hi

Wen carry the central external tank you can have up to 9100 of fuel.
When you fill up again when rearming, you can only get up to 8700...

AND

After refueling in ground, when you go AB your tank will empty in no time. I mean, very fast. Just like 20 secods...
Is that normal?

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