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How should I go about setting up my force feedback?


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I have a Saitek Cyborg Evo Force, a pretty basic force feedback joystick, and I'm having some issues with it. When I trim the chopper I have gathered that the intended idea is that the stick stays in the position you left it. Is this correct?

Mine does not, it returns to the center, but has much less resistance in the direction I trimmed it. How can I make it so my stick stays still, if this is how it is supposed to work? If not what settings should I use anyway.

Currently I have my settings at: Default Gain - 100%

Spring Gain - 100%

Damper Gain -100%

Default Spring - 50%

Default Spring is always on - unticked.

 

I don't understand what all these settings mean, so any advice would be great, since right now I am totally failing to control this copter.

 

As an aside I keep clashing my rotors together somehow (at least I assume this is what is happening. I hear a crunch and then in external view notice my props are much shorter than they should be :D). What am I doing wrong that causes this? I have never flown a copter in a sim before

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As an aside I keep clashing my rotors together somehow (at least I assume this is what is happening. I hear a crunch and then in external view notice my props are much shorter than they should be :D). What am I doing wrong that causes this? I have never flown a copter in a sim before

 

The faster you fly, the closer the blades get due to flapping. Add some hard maneuvering et voila. The don'ts: Hard right rudder in high speed flight. Hard roll in high speed flight. Overloading the rotor disc in general. Not listening to the beeping sound and that blinking red light (severe overspeed alone can get your blades to intersect). Worsened by: High payload. High collective. High altitude (because it forces you to use high collective).


Edited by sobek

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Hey gunrun, welcome to the forums.

 

The problem is that the joystick you have has a mechanical spring that keeps it centered. I'm not sure what kind of a motor setup a cyborg evo has or whether it can provide any directional forces or just a shuddering effect. In contrast, sticks like the M$ FFB2 don't have a spring, but instead rely only on the force feedback motors for centering. I doubt you can get the force feedback trimming working on the particular stick that you have.

 

As far as the blade clash, this is due to a few factors. If you're flying at high speed, the advancing portion of the blade disk is going to create more lift than the retreating portion of the blade disk. This will cause the rotor disk to 'tilt' in one direction as the blades creating more lift will flap upwards. Combine this with the fact that you have a counter-rotating coaxial rotor configuration and you can see where this becomes a problem. The lower disk will 'tilt' to the left while the upper disk will 'tilt' to the right. Take a look in the external view when you're flying near 280km/h, it gets really apparent at high speed. In and of itself, blade flapping isn't really a problem unless you fly the helicopter outside of its flight envelope, ie. don't ignore overspeed warnings.

 

The second factor that will ruin your day is how a Ka-50 yaws. A Ka-50 doesn't need a tail rotor because it has two rotor disks creating equal torque in opposite directions. To yaw, the helicopter increases the pitch of one rotor disk while simultaneously decreasing the pitch of the other. This maintains the same net lift while creating a difference in torque between the two rotor disks and subsequently causes the aircraft to yaw. In the Ka-50, right rudder causes the lower disk to increase in pitch and the upper disk to decrease in pitch. Conversely, left rudder will cause the opposite effect.

 

So what does differential pitch have to do with blade clash? Think about the first scenario of the helicopter flying at high speed. The two rotor disks are getting closer and closer together on the right side of the aircraft. Now you apply hard right rudder. This causes the lower blade disk to increase in pitch and the upper disk to decrease in pitch. This causes the lower disk to flap even more, while the upper flaps even less. You've already found out what happens next ;).

 

Long story short, don't ignore overspeed warnings and be cautious of how you use that right rudder pedal at higher speeds. Also try to avoid high g maneuvers and erratic cyclic inputs and you should be fine.

 

Hope this helps a bit!

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Thanks for the explanation on rotor tilt. I still think it's a bit strange for Kamov not to prevent this, seeing as normally the helicopter has all its actions put through the autopilot before it actually does anything.

 

I know for a fact that my stick can provide directional forces, as the force feedback test within the calibration software can make the stick move around by itsself, and the spring it does have is very weak. If I unplug the stick from its power I can tilt it and it will stay where it is tilted, so the spring doesn't recenter it. I suppose I shall just keep mucking around with the settings till I figure it out.

edit: and I shall report back if I do, but if anyone else has this stick then please can you tell me the settings you use?


Edited by Gunrun
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The autopilot cann not override your input, it can only make the actual controls deviate 20% from your input. Remember, you are the pilot. If YOU overspeed the chopper (or tell the AP to do it) YOU are going to crash. No system can be totally PEBKAC/PEBSAC safe :D

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I'm actually looking at getting either an x52 (the lack of force feedback might be an issue but all the extra buttons should be damn useful) or an MSFFB2 thanks to this thread, but I am unsure as to if it (the MS one) works in Windows Vista, as I read conflicting reports.

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I use an MSFFB2 & I set the center forces to zero, and the FFB to full (& checked "swap axis" in the FFB tune panel of the game). Can you do this ?

 

 

Weta43,

How do you set center force to zero?

 

I use a FF2 as you do and I have some probs when the stick is centered.

If I let go on the stick it won`t stay in position.

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Weta43,

How do you set center force to zero?

 

I use a FF2 as you do and I have some probs when the stick is centered.

If I let go on the stick it won`t stay in position.

 

 

Are U running the Force Feedback software? I am running in a Windows XP Pro enviroment, and I actually had to search for the software and install it by force to get XP to accept it. Now I have the options of FFB Strengh and Return Spring Force..

 

PM me and I can send you the software..

 

MSFFB2 has a sensor in the stick handle that can detect if your hand is on the stick or not. If you let go of the stick it automaticly disables the force feedback motors and the stick feels "dead"..

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Are U running the Force Feedback software? I am running in a Windows XP Pro enviroment, and I actually had to search for the software and install it by force to get XP to accept it. Now I have the options of FFB Strengh and Return Spring Force..

 

PM me and I can send you the software..

 

MSFFB2 has a sensor in the stick handle that can detect if your hand is on the stick or not. If you let go of the stick it automaticly disables the force feedback motors and the stick feels "dead"..

 

I didn`t know that.

I have XP pro and use FF2 for just plug and play with no extra software.

I thought may be this could be adjusted in the option\control section of the sim.

 

PM on its way.

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Guys, interesting thread because I have the good ol' MS SW FF2 also but didn't feel any forces at all in BS.

What options ingame do I need to tune:

 

In options/controls. Go to axis commands, go to Flight Control Cyclic Pitch (and or Flight Control Cyclic Roll).

When you click (highlight) the value in the box below the column MS SW. Then click the button FFTune (below right)

Trimmer Force: (0-100). actual value 100

Shake (0-100). actual value 50

Swap Axes

 

What values do you guys use there?

 

Thanks in advance for the advice,

Rob

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  • ED Team

Please, check file ..\Config\Producer.cfg:

 
ForceFeedbackEnabled = true;

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Thread moved a long way while I wasn't looking :-)

 

 

 

In the software that came with the stick (Sidewinder ?) there's a page to let you adjust all the forces. At work now or I'd tell you the path.

If you let fo completely, the stick not only feels "dead" but has no forces at all to keep it in position & will "fall over", taking you with it. Maybe slap a bit of tape over the sensor. but that means that the stick will be "on" all the time...

Cheers.

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Gonna post this here because it might get a better response..........

 

I Have a Logitech FORCE ffb joystick http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-96315.../dp/B00000JDG3 , this thing is a beast compared to most FFB joysticks, in that its effects are very powerful, however this leads to a problem in Black shark.

 

When I tried to fly in Black shark with the FFB set to true, the trimmer worked as it should, but for one major exception. There is violent stick vibration when the stick was in the neutral position, no matter where the trimmed neutral position was. I had assume that this was a bug in the Russian version, so i decided to wait for the English version. The problem is still present. The FFB adjustment settings in the options seem to have no effect at all either.

 

After a bit of digging around i have discovered that BS is not entirely at fault. I downloaded a FFB test program (http://www.dirks-software.ca/downloads/ForceTest.exe) to test out the forces. And lo and behold, when i set the spring center force to on, the stick exhibits the exact same vibration as in BS (it seems the stick is providing it own feedback to the spring effect, hence the self perpetuating violent vibration)

 

However if i set the force amount to 50% in the above program the problem disappears. This would be the solution to my problem in BS. However i seem to have no control of the Centering spring force in BS.

 

Has anybody got any idea how i can manipulate the center spring force in BS? I think the question i need to ask is... how is it i can set the centering force to 50% with the above program (forcetest.exe) but I cant do the same in Black shark? Is the other program operating at deeper level of Directx than Black Shark? is it possible modify Black shark to achieve the same result?

 

Nate

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In the software that came with the stick (Sidewinder ?) there's a page to let you adjust all the forces. At work now or I'd tell you the path.

If you let fo completely, the stick not only feels "dead" but has no forces at all to keep it in position & will "fall over", taking you with it. Maybe slap a bit of tape over the sensor. but that means that the stick will be "on" all the time...

 

Thanks but what does this solve, I don't seem to feel any forces at all in BS. The MS SW FF2 does work in e.g. FSX/FS2004 or it's own software that came with the stick. What ingame options (values) do I need to set to feel the FF.

 

Rob

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Same as peterJ above but cant program the buttons.....does anyone know of any software that allows MS FF2 programming in Vista.

I also have the X52 but only use the throttle part and the MSFF2 as the joystick, it is far superior to the feel of the X52, for me that is, but miss out on the programmability :(

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  • 2 weeks later...

Big Brown UPS truck showed up today in front of my house with the Logitech Force 3D Pro! I bought this joystick exclusively to use with Black Shark trimming feature.

 

Well, I am not very impressed how all this works. When I press the "T" key I can feel the kick in the stick, however the stick does not lock in that position. It moves some towards the center. So trimming is not precise at all.

 

The stick center is not very tight either. It is like the servo motors are not keeping the stick firm. I would expect the servo motors keeping the stick in very firm center, because servo motors "know” where the stick is and should be able to keep it there?

 

I will try to play with this some ...

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Big Brown UPS truck showed up today in front of my house with the Logitech Force 3D Pro! I bought this joystick exclusively to use with Black Shark trimming feature.

 

Well, I am not very impressed how all this works. When I press the "T" key I can feel the kick in the stick, however the stick does not lock in that position. It moves some towards the center. So trimming is not precise at all.

 

The stick center is not very tight either. It is like the servo motors are not keeping the stick firm. I would expect the servo motors keeping the stick in very firm center, because servo motors "know” where the stick is and should be able to keep it there?

 

I will try to play with this some ...

Go to FF tune -> Swap axes

 

It works in MSFFB2. They say it's pecularity of device.

System: Core2Duo E8500, 4G ram, GTX260, SLC SSD, and Vista 32bit. LG W2600HP 26" LCD.

Controls : MSFFB2, CH Pro throttle, Saitek rudder, Saitek throttle quadrant, and TrackIR4

BS Setting : medium with visibility HIGH

More skill you get, more you Love DCS:Black Shark.

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Go to FF tune -> Swap axes

 

It works in MSFFB2. They say it's pecularity of device.

Thanks for the advice. My joystick is Logitech, but I tried anyway. I did not see any improvement.

Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit

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Are U running the Force Feedback software? I am running in a Windows XP Pro enviroment, and I actually had to search for the software and install it by force to get XP to accept it. Now I have the options of FFB Strengh and Return Spring Force..

 

PM me and I can send you the software..

 

MSFFB2 has a sensor in the stick handle that can detect if your hand is on the stick or not. If you let go of the stick it automaticly disables the force feedback motors and the stick feels "dead"..

 

Trigger, I sent you a pm as I also need the FFB2 driver. I have FFB in the plug and play setup of XP but as soon as a flight loads up in BS the FFB goes dead.

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