Tanks deadly accurate vs helos ?

[Khaz]

Hi there !

Me and a friend are learning to use this amazing new module as we've always had the AH-64D in our heart.

He as CPG and me as PLT.

 

We've made a quick COOP mission where we have to shoot a mix of trucks / tanks and a ZSU-23-4 Shilka.

We are getting slaughtered by a "simple" T-90, firing with its shells at us, not even firing its machine gun.

The mission sets up in a small valley which I reach flying in a canyon and I usually set us in a hover at about 4 to 6 km from the targets.

From there my CPG is then able to identify and fire a first Hellfire to the Shilka with no pain and no fire back from the Shilka (as we are probably out of its range).

 

BUT then... when we try to fire at the tank.... a T-90... We are usually at about 4-5 km from it, high, and while my CPG is working on acquisition, we are getting sniped right in the air by a shell (he always fire a single shell that hits us every time so accuracy is 100% - we've restarted 3 times the mission and got killed 3 times by that tank xD).

 

So we are quite confused and wondering if it's normal that tanks are so deadly accurate with shells at such a distance against helos ?

The skill level of the tank in mission editor is set to "poor".

 

Even the Shilka is not firing at us and thus represent a far minor threat compared to the T-90.

Any ideas / thoughts on this ?

 

Thx guys.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Khaz

[Bunny Clark]

It's probably not a gun round, the T-90 (and most other modern Russian tanks) can fire ATGMs from its main cannon. 

Hovering, especially high, is a bad idea in combat. If you're going to fight from a hover, stay low, mask behind cover, and don't be exposed for any longer than absolutely necessary. LOAL can be useful here, lob a missile up from behind cover, then pop-up to lase for the last few seconds of flight. You can also fight more like a fighter jet, make a run-in at your target, fire and lase to hit, then break off, circle around, and come back for another run. A moving target is much more difficult to hit with an ATGM or guns, and gives you a bit more defense against MANPADS too.

[Khaz]

Hi Bunny Clark !

 

Thank you for your answer.

 

About hovering at low alt, I have the same "problem" as described here https://forum.dcs.world/topic/297097-torque-vs-config-weather/#comment-4931154

I'm still learning to fly the beast (jet pilot here, not very familiar to helos except some hours on Ka-50 module) and I'm getting some troubles to get some altitude while in hover without pushing the torque past 95%. Doing so triggers cautions and even a low rpm alert and a sudden loss of altitude in some cases.

This is why I'm hovering high so I have a margin to recover from a sudden loss if it happens.

Anyway, thanks for the ATGM reminder I had completely forgotten those tanks are equipped. I hadn't even thought about them being able to use them against air threats in DCS.

As for the rest of it, I guess it's a matter of learning to fly the thing especially combat techniques. 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Khaz

[Bunny Clark]

I spent some time working on this myself this evening. Eventually I was able to destroy 9x T-80Us solo. I found two techniques that worked:

Low hover from behind cover. Pop-up, engage, and as soon as your missile hits dive back down and shift to a new location. Do not stay unmasked and engage another target, no matter how juicy it looks. Do not pop right back up in the same location. Move around down low, make them loose track of you, then pop back up from a different spot and hit another one. 

Stay low and fast, moving perpendicular to them or circling them. Pop up to a few hundred feet, turn into them, lase and engage while flying right at them, staying fairly fast. Once your missile hits, break hard left or right and dive back into cover. Get into position to make another attack, and repeat. This tends to be better at shorter ranges, you don't want to get into MG range, but the shorter your missile time of flight the less time you need to be up and lasing before breaking back for the deck. 

[LazyBoot]

Getting more range also helps. Staying around 6-8km will often mean a lot fewer atgms flying your way 

[WinterH]

4-5 kilometers from likes of T-72,T-80,T-90 is also kind of asking for trouble. Hellfire provides a lot more range than that, so it's best to utilize it. Their gun launched ATGMs like Svir/Reflex have 4.5-5ish kms range. While they may not be likely to hit an evasive helo at long range, one hovering perfectly still is exactly the kind of target they want

This is also true for many IFVs, but their missiles tend to be somewhat shorter ranged, usually.

[BIGNEWY]

Yes good advice about keeping range, don't force a bad position, if you need to egress and reposition do it. 

Note skill level of the AI in the mission effects accuracy, so if its a mission you created try setting a lower skill level

 

[Kang]

'Are tanks deadly accurate against helicopters?'

Short answer: yes, it's the ol' All-Seeing-Eye of the AI at work.

Most of them you can out-range in both the AH-64 and the Ka-50, which makes them blissfully unaware of you entirely. If you can't, avoid hovering - moving around, even with little lateral motion greatly reduces their hit chances.

[Swift.]

Modern MBTs aren't exactly inaccurate whilst targeting slow moving targets either. 

[KungFu]

Ah the days when flying the gazelle with 4km range wire guided missiles....been sniped by tank rounds when behind trees many times.   I take hellfires for 250 Alex

[Rick50]

 

Very long time ago in a chat with a tanker (think it was around 1991 ?), he said that they wouldn't hesitate to send an APDS at an enemy attack helo. The theory was, they probably didn't have time or enough luck to NOT shoot something at the helo. That very high velocity gave a moderate amount of hope of a hit. Depending on exactly 'what' got it, might do very  minor damage, or completely wreck the thing. Gearbox or turbine, that thing is going down, or at the very least it's heading home with one working turbine. Armored crew compartment... not even sure they'd live through that impact... the spalling bits. Tail boom... eh, could maybe carry one like nothing happened... or lose the tail rotor and need to crashland ASAP.

They speculated that even a non-hit close call near the rotor, might cause enough of a vacuum or void, that the rotor could lose enough lift to cause loss of control and crash... I've no idea really, was very sceptical about that claim, but who knows?

No really, I wanna know who might know! anyone aware of any tests with helicopter drones?!?

If I were a gunner and saw an enemy AH, I'd send whatever shell was in the tube that instant, and follow it up with coax rounds, and then try to determine if it's time to abandon the tank or not! 

EDIT:

So I did a search. Nope, nothing about Sabot rounds taking down any tanks by creating an air vacuum by the rotors. But... apparently there have been a few instances of tanks using their main guns to take down enemy helos:

https://www.quora.com/Could-a-tank-take-down-an-Apache-helicopter

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Rick50

[fargo007]

The accuracy of these munitions is also way overportrayed.

That said, you can't deal with units that have these AT9/Svir type ATGMS from a hover if you are inside 5km.  This includes all IFV's, and MBT's from the T-72 and up.

You're a sitting duck.  Either extend and make longer hover shots, or be shooting on the move.

[Scaley]

1 hour ago, Rick50 said:

 

Very long time ago in a chat with a tanker (think it was around 1991 ?), he said that they wouldn't hesitate to send an APDS at an enemy attack helo. The theory was, they probably didn't have time or enough luck to NOT shoot something at the helo. That very high velocity gave a moderate amount of hope of a hit. Depending on exactly 'what' got it, might do very  minor damage, or completely wreck the thing.

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree, and this was SOP stuff back in the early 2000s (the last time I got to read a real SOP). A modern MBT fire control system is perfectly capable of achieving over 95% hit rates well out beyond 000m. The kinetic energy contained in the APFSDS rounds in crazy compared to any normal air to air weapons system. I'd suggest the chance of an attack helo surviving being hit anywhere by one is near zero. Muzzle velocities north of 2000m/s certainly help...

[Harry_Bumcrack]

1 hour ago, Rick50 said:

 

Very long time ago in a chat with a tanker (think it was around 1991 ?), he said that they wouldn't hesitate to send an APDS at an enemy attack helo. The theory was, they probably didn't have time or enough luck to NOT shoot something at the helo. That very high velocity gave a moderate amount of hope of a hit. Depending on exactly 'what' got it, might do very  minor damage, or completely wreck the thing. Gearbox or turbine, that thing is going down, or at the very least it's heading home with one working turbine. Armored crew compartment... not even sure they'd live through that impact... the spalling bits. Tail boom... eh, could maybe carry one like nothing happened... or lose the tail rotor and need to crashland ASAP.

They speculated that even a non-hit close call near the rotor, might cause enough of a vacuum or void, that the rotor could lose enough lift to cause loss of control and crash... I've no idea really, was very sceptical about that claim, but who knows?

No really, I wanna know who might know! anyone aware of any tests with helicopter drones?!?

If I were a gunner and saw an enemy AH, I'd send whatever shell was in the tube that instant, and follow it up with coax rounds, and then try to determine if it's time to abandon the tank or not! 

EDIT:

So I did a search. Nope, nothing about Sabot rounds taking down any tanks by creating an air vacuum by the rotors. But... apparently there have been a few instances of tanks using their main guns to take down enemy helos:

https://www.quora.com/Could-a-tank-take-down-an-Apache-helicopter

 

 

Can confirm. As a former Leopard crewman in the Australian Army it was SOP to engage slow moving or hovering helo's with APDS. Also, the bit about the vacuum falls into the same category of 'even a near miss with a .50 cal will still kill a person from the shockwave'.

[Beirut]

I'm not 100% sure but I think I had Russian artillery taking pot shots at me. 

 

 

 

[Sobakopes]

A couple ua hinds were tanked down by sabot fire just recently. 

[idenwen]

For the hovering part have a look at 

 

[Khaz]

Got that video pinned in my fav for some days but didn't watched it yet until today... I now understand things better.

It is a very new way of flying and playing (at least to me, being a jet pilot since LOMAC).

Need to exercice more and continue learning, especially by making mistakes like these... xD

Thanks everybody for your thoughts.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Khaz

[Dannyvandelft]

Years ago I got to play in an army tank simulator (a real military one, not a game) and the tank was able to "lock on" to a hovering helicopter and blow it right out the sky. If it's within turret limits, it can kill it. Especially a non moving target.

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[Rick50]

Hmm. Didn't know of any tanks that have target tracking or "lock".  I know they can lase distance, sample barometrics, wind speed and direction, to provide a great trajectory, use it to calculate lead, but that's different from tracking an object or image. 

Yea, it shouldn't be impossible to aim at a hovering or slow moving helo in a normal and fairly modern MBT. I'd expect anything like the T-64 and newer to be able to do that with a good gunner. Not familiar enough with older tanks than that. And with the new stuff in the last 10 years or less, I dunnno, I'm sure some army out there has some really nice secret functions that the rest of the civilian world doesn't know about! It's plausible that a nation that really wanted to upgrade a fleet might develop new fire controls systems for new functionality.

Really though, the thing is, if you find tanks are shooting at you, think about just how incredibly vulnerable you are to Shilka's, Tunguska, TOR, Gepard and Avenger units... SOOOOO much more easy to shoot you down than some ATGM's from Main Battle Tanks!!

[Niehorst]

There is this documentation on TV about combat helicopters and some historic missions. One episode is called "duel in the desert". Telling the story of an UK Gazelle crew during desert storm. They were fighting a well hidden T55 in an urban area. They keep circling in their "battle box" and on the hot leg trying to aquire that guy. Took them several runs and one missed HOT-3 before they finally destroyed it. What these guys wanted to do at least was hovering there. They would not have survived that.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Niehorst