Inaccurate trim position with FFB joysticks when using SaturationY

[average_pilot]

I use SaturationY to reduce the sensitivity of the stick without losing the linearity. Unfortunately, with SaturationY the force trim does not trim at the position of the physical FFB joystick. There's is a gap between the current physical position of the joystick when releasing the trim and the new trimmed position that gets bigger the more saturation values are used.

Actually, is a problem in all modules that has the ability to change the neutral position of the FFB joystick when you trim, both airplanes and helicopters. For years I've been using simffb as a workaround. But I thought it would be a good moment to report it now that the Apache has so much visibility.

[Pikey]

Just for a point of clarification. You use saturation to change the sticks limits versus the in game one, meaning that there is no 1:1 for real position to game position, but you want that "reset"  to neutralise at the point of the trimmed state every time the stick is trimmed so that the accelerated coordinate provides the same accelerated feeling at the new trimmed position?

Let's call this, "Dynamic saturation". Makes sense to me if i understand well enough. I'm not sure how simffb works as I read it it sounds like its to do with the forcefeedback rather than the acceleration.

Would this work with curves too? For exmple if you have curves allowing precision at the stick center, do these then travel with the force trim too? I can definitely see how making any changes to the stick curves that break from 1:1 would mess up the feeling of trim, but I feel that its a bit of a crutch, since a real stick doesn't gain precision every time it is moved. but since its so artificial anyway, why not.

Unless I completely misunderstood, in which case, please correct and explain

[VirusAM]

Curves should not be used with FFB sticks.

I have a modded FFB2. I will try the saturation thing as I will have some time. In theory saturation should work fine.

SimFFB is an app to have spring and other effects in games which does not support FFB, otherwise the stick would be with no forces.

It has little use with dcs.

Edited March 29, 2022 by VirusAM

[average_pilot]

It's all very simple actually. Whenever you release the trim button, your physical FFB joystick should be trimmed to the current physical position of the joystick. That's the whole point of using a FFB joystick. That physical position will translate into some in-game position after going through whatever curves and saturations are set if any, that's a different story. But the trimmed position should correspond to the actual current position that the joystick is reporting in the moment of releasing the trim button since that's what trimming means.

I see I'm failing to get the message through as ED is not seeing it as something that needs to be fixed and moved the thread from bugs and problems.

I use simffb with DCS because of the very thing I'm explaining here. Also some people enjoy the extra immersion of that dampening/friction effect provides over the spring effect alone that feels just like that, a stick connected to springs and nothing more.

[Gunslinger52]

Hi All, does anyone know if the Saitek Cyborg EVO Force works with DCS Apache on WIN 10?  No luck for me so far.

Do I need simffb maybe?

 

Thanks

[firefox121]

En 9/5/2023 a las 7:49, Gunslinger52 dijo:

Hi All, does anyone know if the Saitek Cyborg EVO Force works with DCS Apache on WIN 10?  No luck for me so far.

Do I need simffb maybe?

 

Thanks

Hello , before I purchased a Microsoft sidewinder ffb2 , I used to play with cyborg evo force, take a look at this page and install the drivers here https://github.com/WallyCZ/saitek-cyborg-ff , also to fly the apache, reduce the force spring in the windows 10 joystick control panel , almost to 0 and use the settings inside dcs, you must search also the latest simffb version , It helps you to adjust two settings, one with hold trim pressed and one with depressed.

Pm if you want the files or some explanation.

[Gunslinger52]

Slowly making progress.  Evo now reacts to almost all forces using Force Test software, but not all.  DCS has FFB enabled, but nothing happens.  

[firefox121]

hace 11 horas, Gunslinger52 dijo:

Slowly making progress.  Evo now reacts to almost all forces using Force Test software, but not all.  DCS has FFB enabled, but nothing happens.  

Just explaining something at helos and ffb :

- The ffb at helos modules works only to make the joy to stay at the last trimmed position, for that, in your evo force you must to disable the spring that is forcing the joy to return at his center position, for me ,  the easiest way was pushing the circular plate up with brides or for example a rope (shoes rope might work) so the spring does not force the stick to return to the center and....if you want fly planes can release the rope and have better feeling of forces...

You will not have neither shakes nor return force....consider the stick like a free moving line that will remain in his last trimmed position..

SOme modules have not ffb, like for example f-86, others like p51 or f14 or flamming cliffs have ffb more or less well implemented.

modern aircrafts like f18 and f16 has no ffb.

In my experience , if you can find a sidewinder ffb 2 the experience will be much much better.

Here is a pic of what I am saying...

- So use the simffb utility to fly the helos, here you can assign the spring force, the return force and the damper force, and use the joy buttons to swap into two modes.... if you have any question I can send you more detailed instructions.

Here is the program https://github.com/joeyjojojunior/simFFB

Edited May 29, 2023 by firefox121

[Gunslinger52]

Oh that's great info, thanks very much.  I have removed the spring completely, so that is better now.

I tried simFFB last night, but I didn't notice any results.

 

Are you able to post a screenshot of your simFFB settings, your WIN10 joystick settings, and your DCS settings please?

Thanks again!  

[firefox121]

hace 16 horas, Gunslinger52 dijo:

Oh that's great info, thanks very much.  I have removed the spring completely, so that is better now.

I tried simFFB last night, but I didn't notice any results.

 

Are you able to post a screenshot of your simFFB settings, your WIN10 joystick settings, and your DCS settings please?

Thanks again!  

Here are my settings..... I'll try to explain because they are for my sidewinder.

First, If you are using evo, don't enable swap axis...it is only for sidewinder.

Second, at Options in trim you must select both (its is important) if not... joy will not stay in trimmed position

The first tree percentage lines are used to feel some force and maintain the joy in the last position when ftr up is pressed (in my rig I also assigned button 3 (hold) to the dcs keybind FTRUP)

You will notice that  if you moves the joy and press the 3 button or whatever you assign to the hold position , the joy will remain there.

Assign center button and dcs trim center(reset) button to the same button as you binded in simFFB

The second three percentages sliders are used in my case to have a no force joy (that it happens when I use the toggle assigned button in the joy), in this situation the joy acts without forces and remains (ish) where you leave it .

In dcs , at your force evo axis settings, use only in ffb forces options only 10 or 20 in force spring.

Two more things, assign for example backspace to init dinput and don't close simFFB till you end flying dcs, you will notice that when dcs starts the joy becames woobly and without forces, the press "basckspace" or the key you assigned to reset the joy and have simFFB acting well.

Also, if you use simFFB , you WILL NOT HAVE ffb responses in other modules like shaking etc.... in order to feel the forces implemented for the other modules (p51, mig 15, flamming cliffs modules, f14) make sure that simFFB is not working and you have exit DCS and rerun it.

 

Hope this helps to you

Edited May 30, 2023 by firefox121