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The F-35 Thread


Groove

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If you know a little more about physics, you come to realize that you really need to do the math to know for sure. ;)

 

If you know even more still you'd be able to figure out that it would take a substantial advantage in lift coefficient to negate a 100 kg/sq.m disadvantage in wing loading ;)

 

Now considering that the F-16 enjoys several other advantages in terms of lift production I'd say it doesn't take an aerodynamicist to know that the F-35 doesn't stand a chance in a turn fight against the Falcon.

 

Don't be fooled by Lockheed propoganda.


Edited by Hummingbird
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If you know even more still you'd be able to figure out that it would take a substantial advantage in lift coefficient to negate a 100 kg/sq.m disadvantage in wing loading ;)

 

Now considering that the F-16 enjoys several other advantages in terms of lift production I'd say it doesn't take an aerodynamicist to know that the F-35 doesn't stand a chance in a turn fight against the Falcon.

 

Don't be fooled by Lockheed propoganda.

 

And the final statement on this (and this has been stated about a hundred times or more) is that any F-35 pilot that gets himself into a turning fight with ANYTHING deserves to be shot down... The F-35 is designed to defeat it's opponent using superior systems including Stealth, target acquisition/tracking and missiles capable of destroying the enemy BVR...

 

How many times are people going to bring up useless arguments that have ZERO bearing on how the plane is designed to be used? Tactics change and as they do, so does the equipment and what the focus of that equipment is...

 

Folks need to understand that turning and burning when it comes to future aerial warfare will take a distant back burner to Stealth and BVR engagements... (At least until THOSE tactics change due to technology improvements anyway.)

 

You may not like it and it may not be as glamorous, but the F-35 once all the wrinkles are ironed out will be far more effective with it's superior systems and stealth than it's opponents and certainly more survivable than previous planes such as the F-15, F-16 / F-18 etc...

 

Once again give the wing loading stats a rest please... Those stats have ZERO bearing on the validity of the F-35 in it's designated role...

"Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence."

RAMBO

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Right, it takes someone who understands what an engagement looks like and can do math on the back of an envelope.

 

Now considering that the F-16 enjoys several other advantages in terms of lift production I'd say it doesn't take an aerodynamicist to know that the F-35 doesn't stand a chance in a turn fight against the Falcon.

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As in don't get into a turning fight with one, you won't enjoy it.

 

Define "like".

 

OMG a turning fight with an F35!..Might as well eject.

 

or

 

Honey I'm gonna be late...gotta dispatch this F35 first.

 

or

 

Hope my life insurance is paid up. This is an equal (turning) fight.

 

See what I mean? I just have an issue with the smug know-it-all type posts. Somebody has presented some evidence. Argue science or don't bite. You're wrong because you're wrong type of response is non-sensical.

 

Arguing over sustained turnrate with a jet that has unmatched SA and HOBS capability. Slow clap.

 

I sort of agree. See above though.

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I just have an issue with the smug know-it-all type posts. Somebody has presented some evidence. Argue science or don't bite. You're wrong because you're wrong type of response is non-sensical.

 

There is no argument, nobody chatting in these threads know the full capabilities of the F-35, so its all hot air. Most likely, most here dont know the full capabilities of an F-16. So all this is just blabber... so lets try again... stay on topic.

 

When they release a report or a vid of an F-35 vs F-16 dogfight, feel free to share it here... other wise its all guesses...

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How many times are people going to bring up useless arguments that have ZERO bearing on how the plane is designed to be used? Tactics change and as they do, so does the equipment and what the focus of that equipment is...

 

Folks need to understand that turning and burning when it comes to future aerial warfare will take a distant back burner to Stealth and BVR engagements... (At least until THOSE tactics change due to technology improvements anyway.)

][/b][/i]...

 

 

I do agree with your statements but still ... that phrase sound a lot like 60's theories of dogfighting.

 

Let's see if there is a mig 15 of the future

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Actually no one presented evidence nor science - but when that happened, you didn't bite. Why are you biting now?

 

It's ok though, here's how it breaks down:

 

The F-35 has great sustained G when compared to combat-loaded fighter. It doesn't compare as well against a clean F-16, sure.

 

The F-35 has a fuselage that will generate lift. Whether it generates lift constantly, or just during a turn is something we likely won't know (there are trade-offs, so choices are made accordingly), but it will generate lift - just like the F-15 fuselage, the F-22 one, the Su-27 and MiG-29 ones.

 

The F-35 has LEFs, but blind men don't see them :)

 

Vortex generating devices may be present, but not obvious.

 

The F-35 clocks a sustained, CONTROLLABLE 50 AoA capability. F-16's certainly don't.

 

See what I mean? I just have an issue with the smug know-it-all type posts. Somebody has presented some evidence. Argue science or don't bite. You're wrong because you're wrong type of response is non-sensical.

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I do agree with your statements but still ... that phrase sound a lot like 60's theories of dogfighting.

 

Let's see if there is a mig 15 of the future

 

You are absolutely correct with that statement in regards to 60's dogfighting and only time will tell if we are making the same mistakes again... Personally, I am betting on the technology today as it is sooo far ahead of what we had even in the 90's and might as well be centuries ahead of 60s technology...

 

But your cautionary statement is well taken my friend... :thumbup:

"Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence."

RAMBO

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Define "like".

 

OMG a turning fight with an F35!..Might as well eject.

 

or

 

Honey I'm gonna be late...gotta dispatch this F35 first.

 

or

 

Hope my life insurance is paid up. This is an equal (turning) fight.

 

See what I mean? I just have an issue with the smug know-it-all type posts. Somebody has presented some evidence. Argue science or don't bite. You're wrong because you're wrong type of response is non-sensical.

 

 

 

I sort of agree. See above though.

 

We do know for certain that it is rated for 50degs angle of attack. That is considerably more than the F-16 and in the same department as the super-hornet. Also from pilot accounts Ive seen it described as flying better than a clean F-16 when fully armed. It certainly wont be a slouch.

 

Also I just now noticed that was just repeating GG's last post. Was not intentional, i didnt see his new post until after I posted mine. Anyhow I agree with his statements.

 

Ill repeat what I said earlier:

 

The F-35 will enter every fight clean and most likely undetected or from non-definite aspect. Even presuming a guns only fight where the F-35's are depleted of missiles, it wont go well for the Su-30s. If 30 odd Lightning II's bounce a pack of 30 odd Su-30 MKK's or Su-35s the massive difference in SA will most likely offset any theoretical kinematic advantage held by the flankers. Due to DAS and other sensors combined with stealth, the flankers might not even see the F-35s make their attack, and if they do they can only do it visually unless the F-35s are stupid enough to attack from the front where the IRST of the flankers might detect them. But they most likely wont, since after discharging their BVR missiles they chose a preferential engagement geometry allowed by their SA and Stealth advantages. Even if the flankers see them visually several things can be said for sure:

 

1. They will not have a complete picture of what is attacking them. But DAS means the lightnings will. Presuming a visual engagement, the flankers might spot them but wont know exact numbers, disposition etc. This limits their reaction to the threat. The F-35s will know exactly how many flankers there are, where they are, what they are doing, and who is friendly and who is not. This means that the commander of that unit can dispatch enemies with great efficiency, assigning targets and tactics better because he has the best picture of what he is attacking etc.

 

2. Even if some of the Flankers visually identify the F-35s( which they may not at all since they could attack from behind, below or any combination therin) not every member of that unit will see all the F-35s spotted. This means that many flankers will most likely go down to cannon fire before being able to effectively engage in maneuver fights. EVEN IF they spot the specific jet or jets that are bouncing them, they will most likely be in a poor kinematic and geometric position at the beginning of the fight which ill greatly offset any kinematic advantage they MAY have.


Edited by USARStarkey

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One thing I find a bit amusing is the claim that the F-35 performs better in a sustained turn than the F-16. If you know a little bit of physics & aerodynamics you'll see how that's not even remotely possible :D

 

Features that boost aircraft turn performance (Random order):

1. Greater than 1:1 T/W ratio

2. LERX

3. LE flaps

4. Blended wing design

 

F-16 (wing loading = 431 kg/sq.m)

1. Check!

2. Check!

3. Check!

4. Check!

 

F-35 (wing loading = 526 kg/sq.m)

 

1. Check!

2. Negative!

3. Check!

4. Negative!

 

I see your doing that thing again where you post assertions with absolute performance backed by generalizations and simplifications of aerodynamics.

 

New List:

 

F-35

 

Clean air frame when loaded---Check

Advanced Fly by wire----Check

Possible innovations that are not obvious or disclosed yet( as evinced by being able to hit a 50deg AoA.): Check

Extremely high thrust engine combined with very low drag= extremely high thrust to drag ratio which I am told by some Aero eng friends of mine is even more important the T/W for sustained turns. : Check.


Edited by USARStarkey

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One thing I find a bit amusing is the claim that the F-35 performs better in a sustained turn than the F-16. If you know a little bit of physics & aerodynamics you'll see how that's not even remotely possible :D

 

Features that boost aircraft turn performance (Random order):

1. Greater than 1:1 T/W ratio

2. LERX

3. LE flaps

4. Blended wing design

 

F-16 (wing loading = 431 kg/sq.m)

1. Check!

2. Check!

3. Check!

4. Check!

 

F-35 (wing loading = 526 kg/sq.m)

1. Check!

2. Negative!

3. Check!

4. Negative!

 

 

Both will have T/W greater than and less than 1 in parts of the flight envelope depending on their respective weight, velocity, and altitude.

 

Wing Loading does not just exist at some single undefined weight point, secondly it is largely irrelevant because it takes no account of lift generated by tail and vortex lift as some examples.

 

Like the F-22/16 the 35 is truly unstable in pitch and features some vortex generation devices (e.g shaped air intakes edges)- although how much difference this makes is unknown - and overall performance comes from many combined factors.


Edited by Basher54321
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I see your doing that thing again where you post assertions with absolute performance backed by generalizations and simplifications of aerodynamics.

 

New List:

 

F-35

 

Clean air frame when loaded---Check

Advanced Fly by wire----Check

Possible innovations that are not obvious or disclosed yet( as evinced by being able to hit a 50deg AoA.): Check

Extremely high thrust engine combined with very low drag= extremely high thrust to drag ratio which I am told by some Aero eng friends of mine is even more important the T/W for sustained turns. : Check.

 

 

It's all relative - the thrust and lift must be adequate to counter the drag and weight for a sustained turn at given parameters.

 

Being clean is one major advantage sure.

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50 deg AoA ? Sure... for what, 2 seconds? and then it falls out of the sky like a brick :D

 

When I see an F-35 fly like this, I'll reconsider my judgement:

 

Until then however all I have to say is: There's no way in **** the F-35 will match a F-16 in a turn fight, it's going to get hopelessly trashed in such a fight.


Edited by Hummingbird
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The wing impresses me a great deal.

 

It's not just some slab flat bottomed triangle like the F-16 wing, it's a curved, scalloped engineering masterpiece.

 

It'll be great to see future F-35 air shows when they start realling throwing them around.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing it fly at airshows as well, the aircraft is a beaut, but I'm not expecting anything spectacular in terms of agility, I'm expecting very little there infact.

 

It'll probably end up doing demos similar to those carried out by the AV-8B Harrier, some VTOL action and a bit of close formation flying and then that'll be it.

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Hummingbird you seem to have an axe to grind regarding the F-35... Did it steal your girlfriend or something? Once again I will point out that the F-35 SYSTEMS and STEALTH will allow the plane to wipeout any adversary BEFORE it gets close in, so for about the 30th time.. What the heck is your POINT? If you want to bring a knife to a gun fight go ahead, but that isn't how the F-35 will ever be used so you are simply wasting space with these videos and unfounded accusations...

 

GIVE IT A REST PLEASE

"Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence."

RAMBO

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Btw, note I am not calling the F-35 a bad airplane or overall inferior to current fighters, all I'm saying is that it most certainly wont dominate an airspace through superior maneuverability. It's been designed from the gound up to be a BVR combat aircraft, with little attention being paid to maneuverability.

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That's a bad example because that's the part of the regime where the F-35 would look more impressive assuming it is allowed to get near 50 degrees AOA. The F-16 is intentionally limited to much less so what you see in that video is relatively low.

 

Again, 50 deg for how long? Many older & obsolete aircraft can pull more than that, take the Mirage III for example, but how many can keep flying at such an angle?

 

The F-16 can actually fly very slow at a very high alpha, infact the video I just presented demonstrates a 40+ deg flight at a speed that would see an F-35 plummit like a rock.

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Btw, note I am not calling the F-35 a bad airplane or overall inferior to current fighters, all I'm saying is that it most certainly wont dominate an airspace through superior maneuverability. It's been designed from the gound up to be a BVR combat aircraft, with little attention being paid to maneuverability.

 

 

No, not little attention, just less than you deem fit...

We all have our opinions on what the relative merits are and how things SHOULD be designed, but railing about maneuverability when the platform was designed with other parameters (namely stealth and systems reliance) is silly..

 

Besides, we have no idea how it will fair once perfected.. (And I am betting it may not be the most agile in the world but it will be damn good..)

 

I would guess the designers know a bit more about designing a plane than you or I do..

"Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence."

RAMBO

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Again, 50 deg for how long? Many older & obsolete aircraft can pull more than that, take the Mirage III for example, but how many can keep flying at such an angle?

 

The F-16 can actually fly very slow at a very high alpha, infact the video I just presented demonstrates a 40+ deg flight at a speed that would see an F-35 plummit like a rock.

 

And again who cares? Flying slow and dumb will get you killed.. (This sounds like the WONDERFUL COBRA maneuver.. Looks great at airshows.. Absolutely ZERO combat use..)

"Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence."

RAMBO

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