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Tips to kill a SA-19...


Mr_Blastman

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So say I'm flying along and encounter a SA-19 in the objective area.  To me, these are the ultimate counter to a helo.  While the 9M311 missiles have similar range of a hellfire with their missiles, they fly almost twice as fast.  This means even if I get a shot off I'm toast before my AGM-114K lands, thus rendering the shot useless.

I could try LOAL, but in order for George to fire I have to breach 8 km, which means the SA-19 will start firing.  Ideally I should be able to duck and cover and re-emerge long enough to lase but the timing here is quite slim and sketchy.  The SA-19 will fire again.

 

I can't get close because of their 30 mm AAA.

 

 

I noticed something odd, too last night--the SA-19 wasn't showing up on the ASE.  Nothing, no blips, no signals, only, "Missile Missile" a second before "kaboom" from the CMWS.

Basically these are best dealt with by air support above and not even worth trying to to engage.  Too risky.  Nuke 'em from orbit.  But what if I have no other choice?  That the SA-19 must die and somehow must be done while avoiding their complement of IFVs, APCs and Tanks surrounding them.

 

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I could try LOAL, but in order for George to fire I have to breach 8 km, which means the SA-19 will start firing.  Ideally I should be able to duck and cover and re-emerge long enough to lase but the timing here is quite slim and sketchy.

You basically got it right here. This is all you can really do for now, but it's very high risk. The SA-19 is basically designed to kill low-flying helicopters, so you are better off avoiding them entirely if you can. Once we get the radar guided version of the hellfire (AGM-114L), it should be a bit more manageable.

Quote

I noticed something odd, too last night--the SA-19 wasn't showing up on the ASE.  Nothing, no blips, no signals, only, "Missile Missile" a second before "kaboom" from the CMWS.

I believe the SA-19 in DCS mainly (only?) uses its optical tracking capability, somewhat unrealistically. So you don't get any warning unfortunately. If you stumble into its range and don't know it is there, you are toast.

 


Edited by Joker328
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If you can find a human CPG you should be able to out range them by about 1000 meters or so. I have been able to make hits on static targets with a human CPG at about 9600m and a few a little further.

 

You can also WAS the Hellfires as the pilot and shoot them outside of George's range once he has found a target.

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2 minutes ago, NeMoGas said:

If you can find a human CPG you should be able to out range them by about 1000 meters or so. I have been able to make hits on static targets with a human CPG at about 9600m and a few a little further.

 

You can also WAS the Hellfires as the pilot and shoot them outside of George's range once he has found a target.


Will he know to lase them when in flight and do so?

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Well it can be hit or miss but I have used him to shoot at those ranges before. Sometimes even well under 8k and with the target nice and centered in the TADs I see the Hellfire miss. I could be wrong but I think he continuously lases once he has found a target. 

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2 hours ago, Mr_Blastman said:

Nuke 'em from orbit.

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I creep up slowly in CPG seat and stay right above tree line have been able to take them out in DIR mode at 8.4 clicks ... but I have a stupid question how do you  see the range to target form pilot seat when George locks up target ?  I randomly get a 2s6 searching RLWR audible also, but so far not a tracking warning...


Edited by poochies
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2 hours ago, Mr_Blastman said:

So say I'm flying along and encounter a SA-19 in the objective area.  To me, these are the ultimate counter to a helo.  While the 9M311 missiles have similar range of a hellfire with their missiles, they fly almost twice as fast.  This means even if I get a shot off I'm toast before my AGM-114K lands, thus rendering the shot useless.

I could try LOAL, but in order for George to fire I have to breach 8 km, which means the SA-19 will start firing.  Ideally I should be able to duck and cover and re-emerge long enough to lase but the timing here is quite slim and sketchy.  The SA-19 will fire again.

 

I can't get close because of their 30 mm AAA.

 

 

I noticed something odd, too last night--the SA-19 wasn't showing up on the ASE.  Nothing, no blips, no signals, only, "Missile Missile" a second before "kaboom" from the CMWS.

Basically these are best dealt with by air support above and not even worth trying to to engage.  Too risky.  Nuke 'em from orbit.  But what if I have no other choice?  That the SA-19 must die and somehow must be done while avoiding their complement of IFVs, APCs and Tanks surrounding them.

 

I am also trying to find a strategy and struggle alot with George AI. I managed to fly myself as CPG and do the LOAL shot (lasing only the last 12 sec) - even then it is quite risky because of the slow flight speed of the hellfire compared to vikhr.

I kind of used a LOAL-tactic with the KA-50 on SA-19 quite easily but with the Apache quite hard. Also the Hellifre missiles get often intercepted by SA-8, SA-15 because of the slow flight speed (and fat body?).

I hope the George AI will store targets in the future so that we can do decent LOAL shots as pilot (and George lases the target accordingly when pilot is hovering up).

Seems like the tactics of a one-man-army-KA50 are not possible with the Apache right now. It's really missing the FCR-feature right now - so we have to wait.

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30 minutes ago, poochies said:

 but I have a stupid question how do you  see the range to target form pilot seat when George locks up target ? 

Change one of your MPD's to the TADS view through the VID page. And you'll see the metres near the bottom when CPG is lasing, same as you would in the front seat.

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27 minutes ago, poochies said:

I creep up slowly in CPG seat and stay right above tree line have been able to take them out in DIR mode at 8.4 clicks ... but I have a stupid question how do you  see the range to target form pilot seat when George locks up target ?  I randomly get a 2s6 searching RLWR audible also, but so far not a tracking warning...

 

You need to have the TADS video active and have to activate "TADS" (push button T6 - top right).

image.png

Now you will see the same footage like the CPG:

image.png

George AI only lases actively with rockets or Hellfire in LOBL mode. He does not lase the target with Gun or with Hellfire in LOAL mode (only lasing after launch and when he sees the target).

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49 minutes ago, poochies said:

I creep up slowly in CPG seat and stay right above tree line have been able to take them out in DIR mode at 8.4 clicks ... but I have a stupid question how do you  see the range to target form pilot seat when George locks up target ?  I randomly get a 2s6 searching RLWR audible also, but so far not a tracking warning...

 

Well you can set VID to TADS and this will let you see his range finder.  You can also set the TSD under SHOW to show his cursor, and you can set it to give detail on your own cursor which you can slew over to find range where his cursor is, as well as the grid lines.

 

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An alternative tactics: If you can manage to store the location and the Tunguska is stationary, you can try to bombard it with rockets using nav ranging. However, this requires that you get even closer (4-5 km).

The benefit is that you can stay in cover after you stored the location. Even when firing the rockets, but you might want to do a quick popup to check where they impact.

Of cause, this isn't a reliable tactics, due to the imprecise nature of rockets, but if you have enough cover, its low risk. Also, if you fire 20 rockets at once, chances are good that you hit with one or more.

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I just acquire the CA module. I have made a mission with trucks and SA-19, against 2 ace Apaches with Hellfire. I control the SA-19 and notice that the radar can detect the Apaches, but I cannot get the "IN RANGE" message at > 8900m. Then, unexpectedly, the SA-19 gets taken out first. May be I should try optical guidance first.

I think I need to make a vid.

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I did some testing with buddy lasing including both AI CPG and full human crew.

Scan area with George in LOBL mode, lock the target and drop behind cover. Use TSD to get grid and set it as your ACQ source. Deselect target.

Get to the edge of the range and stay in cover. Long down for George will bring you the same list again. Do not select the target. YOU set your HF for LOAL shot, YOU fire and once you get lasing cue, pop up (best to do this in forward flight to do cyclic climb) and select target for George to start lasing.

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you won't get a search or a track for the missile guidance because it's an optical track. The gun may track you though. Ideal way to handle it is to laze it and have someone chuck a bomb from 20k, because it's going to take out your missiles anyway.

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sneak up to about 3.5km at a alt of about 10 to 30ft (lower the better). and pop up just enough to haver George fire on it. I've done it a hundred times. 

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On 4/2/2022 at 2:23 PM, admiki said:

I did some testing with buddy lasing including both AI CPG and full human crew.

Scan area with George in LOBL mode, lock the target and drop behind cover. Use TSD to get grid and set it as your ACQ source. Deselect target.

Get to the edge of the range and stay in cover. Long down for George will bring you the same list again. Do not select the target. YOU set your HF for LOAL shot, YOU fire and once you get lasing cue, pop up (best to do this in forward flight to do cyclic climb) and select target for George to start lasing.


Will he actually lase when you do this?

 

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I found a way to actually use LOAL the inofficial way with George AI while flying as Pilot (the George AI LOAL mode doesn't work right now, because he is not storing targets and doesn't shoot while in cover)

1. Set George AI Weapon go GUN (so he doesnt lase) (Hellfire weapon for him should be in standard mode LOBL btw)

2. Find the Target by George and select it in a short hop up and descent to cover afterwards

3. Set your Pilot Weapon to Hellfire and use the trajectory you want (LO works great for small obstacles and trees in near front of you)

4. Set TSD Acquisition Source to to a Point or Waypoint near the SA-19 and make sure you are in range of target (ACQ also works when you have an idea where the target is on the map)

5. When ready and aligned, fire your hellfire (or 2 hellfires to make sure the second one hits when the first is engaged by AA) while in cover

6. (takes practice and depending on range to target) Time your hop up and ascend from cover - TOF of the missile should be about 8-10 sec. time left - countdown is on IHADS

7. (hopefully in time) When George automatically reacquired the target visually (check TADS mfd) switch George AI Weapon to Hellfire or Rockets (so he lases continuously)

8. Stay steady and hope for the boom if George doesn't mess up the lasing (you can see the remaining Hellfire TOF now on the TADS mfd)

Repeat

I tested this with a practice site which was packed with 2xSA-19, 2xSA-8, 1xSA15 and managed to wipe them all out this way.

Happy hunting.


Edited by Tepnox
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