Red BVR AAMs

[rkk01]

It’s probably 10 years since I’ve flown any of the Redfor jets…  but have recently been enjoying flying the MiG-29…

One question though, I haven’t settled on (don’t fully understand???) the best red BVR missile.  Ranges for LA seem to be much shorter than I expected for the fully active missiles. Are we limited to the SARH AA-10 / R27 version(s)?

is there a good summary of the available AA and AG ordnance in DCS?  I’ve always struggled to get eyes across the full inventories - perhaps because each module has specific loads?

[razo+r]

4 hours ago, rkk01 said:

is there a good summary of the available AA and AG ordnance in DCS?  I’ve always struggled to get eyes across the full inventories - perhaps because each module has specific loads?

The ingame encyclopedia is a good start to see whats available, but if you want a simple list, you could go to the mission editor and check the warehouse of an airfield.

Edited April 1, 2022 by razo+r

[rkk01]

Thanks for the replies - was loaded with 2x R-77 but only got LA at 18km

Is it worth giving the R-27ER or ET a try?
 I understand that the ER is a SARH missile, which is useless closing to the merge anyway to maintain lock… but what about the ET???

Are there any plans for the active homing R-27???

[skywalker22]

ET is IR guided, it gets locked to the engines of aircraft, its a fire and firget missile. ET is a fine missile, the oponent will not even know about it - there is no warning about IR missiles, except visual (if you can spot the smoke from the engine while burning).

Only ARH from R-27 familiy are R-27EA and R-27EM, but I doubt any will ever be implemented into these FMs (maybe in the future on some full fidality model, if there will ever be created).

Edited April 2, 2022 by skywalker22

[Kang]

The R-27 is quite a capable missile and has the longest reach of all missiles available to you, the R-27ER actually out-ranges the AIM-120C. Its only drawback is that it doesn't have an active seeker. For that the R-77 is your only choice.

[rkk01]

Next test flight will be to trial the R-27 ET.

Given the stated range, does this one get mid course updates, or is it a blind shot to the radar return until the IR seeker picks up a heat source?

[razo+r]

5 minutes ago, rkk01 said:

Next test flight will be to trial the R-27 ET.

Given the stated range, does this one get mid course updates, or is it a blind shot to the radar return until the IR seeker picks up a heat source?

The missile needs to see the heat source of the target before you can launch. 

 

[rkk01]

What…!!!

How does that work at the stated max range

[razo+r]

It doesn't, or at least it won't 99% of time at max range.

 

[Dragon1-1]

The "max range" on R-27ET is humbug, but the big motor does give it a large no-escape zone. It could fly out that far, but only if the target turns and runs after being launched at.

[Kang]

The R-27ET is a good opportunity to remember you have an EO system that works surprisingly well.

[Ironhand]

Against the AI, the R-27ER (used properly) is an excellent missile. It’s the missile I rely on for long range kills. Against ARH spamming humans online? Not so much.

Edit: the -ET version is also long range based on fly out range. It’s just not as long range against a target because it need a thermal lock to track.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Ironhand

[dundun92]

The best red BVR missile is the ER. I will grant, being SARH its not an easy missile to use especially vs AMRAAM carriers. But with proper employment and support tactics, the ER really is hands down the best red BVR missile (if we exclude the SD-10 on the JF-17, which is probably the best missile in game rn ). Generally, ER support tactics involve launching at a medium range (e.g, 60km at 12km alt), shooting, and diving at gimbals to the deck; this kind of ER shot will generally force bandits to either turn cold, or drop a lot of altitude (see this video for some details). With some practice vs AI/humans, its not hard to figure out the optimal range to do this at various altitudes (generally, at high alt, its anywhere between 40-80km depending on 120B vs C, and exactly how high the bandit is). While you cannot win a 1v1 joust with these fights, it does allow you to push off threatening bandits. In general, your best "BVR" killshot is a stern aspect shot in the ER NEZ on an unaware bandit (<8km on the deck); the ERs big motor and large NEZ helps alot with this kind of shot. Shooting from front quarter is risky because its easy for an AMRAAM carrier to spot the smoke trail and quickly snap an AMRAAM onto you, which while can be survivable with some smart notching, is a situation you want to avoid. As for the R-77, many people like it as a BVR missile; I personally dont. I usually only take 1. Its a great sub 5-10km WVR pre-merge jousting missile thanks to its maneuverability and ARH capabilities, and in these last-ditch scenarios can mean the difference between trading or notching and surviving. But as an actual BVR missile, its pretty bad (especially at lower altitudes). It is worse than the 120B range wise thanks to its draggy grid fins, and at low altitudes, looses quite a bit of speed in turns. A high alt, it is decent (it would probably be more viable here if ED gave it loft), but the ER simply has way more range than it here, and a properly supported ER is simply much more lethal. As such, its usage as a BVR missile is quite limited IMO, and it is best used as a support missile for close in scenarios. As for the ET: firstly, against certain targets with super low IR cross section (JF-17, F-16), its hardly "BVR" as the track ranges are so insanely low. 2nd, while vs AI and clueless people on airquake it will hit people, most more competent pilots are going to have the SA to judge you have probably fired an ET based on your range (perhaps even spot the smoke trail), and pre-flare to defeat the ET. In sum, its again one of those specialty missiles like the R-77; it has some use cases (e.g, shots vs beaming targets in NEZ where an ER wouldnt track), but its limited at best. Personally, I only carry 1 ET as well.

Im sum: do not take 1v1 jousts, you cannot win them unless they screw up badly. If bandits try and sort you, just turn cold, reset the fight into friendlies, and use them for help. Try to find unaware bandits, and get within 8-10km behind them and take a lethal ER shot that will be hard for him to evade. If a bandit is high and you cant just extend, use a properly supported ER shot to push him down and turn him cold.

[Exorcet]

A lot of red pilots like to fly low for a bunch of reasons, but the ER can be completely ridiculous at high altitude and speed. Launched high and fast enough it will break Mach 5 or 6, and go so fast it will reach an AMRAAM carrier long before the 120 can go active. However this also requires a long range radar, something the MiG-29 doesn't have. The Su-27 barely qualifies.

The SD-10 also outperforms the AMRAAM at altitude, but it's not quite as fast as the ER.

The ET is a good missile, but because of the seeker it's not the longest range missile. But it's a good stealth/fire then turn and run weapon.

[Ironhand]

3 hours ago, dundun92 said:

…While you cannot win a 1v1 joust with these fights…

Did you actually mean to say this? If so, I’m obviously doing something wrong.

[dundun92]

1 hour ago, Ironhand said:

Did you actually mean to say this? If so, I’m obviously doing something wrong.

I probably should clarify, this is more against human players. Against AI, theres a lot of ways to beat it 1v1 even with worse missiles

[Ironhand]

4 hours ago, dundun92 said:

I probably should clarify, this is more against human players. Against AI, theres a lot of ways to beat it 1v1 even with worse missiles

I thought that might be what you meant. But in the sentence just before that, you were referring to "AI/humans". So I thought I'd ask.

[einarabelc5]

On 4/3/2022 at 10:35 AM, Exorcet said:

A lot of red pilots like to fly low for a bunch of reasons, but the ER can be completely ridiculous at high altitude and speed. Launched high and fast enough it will break Mach 5 or 6, and go so fast it will reach an AMRAAM carrier long before the 120 can go active. However this also requires a long range radar, something the MiG-29 doesn't have. The Su-27 barely qualifies.

The SD-10 also outperforms the AMRAAM at altitude, but it's not quite as fast as the ER.

The ET is a good missile, but because of the seeker it's not the longest range missile. But it's a good stealth/fire then turn and run weapon.

Exactly, no point when the radar stinks....

[_UnknownCheater_]

I remembered before BuddySpike Su27 taken SD-10,they are good combo!