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Overtorque


launchpad72
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I have noticed that the current flight model overtorques way too easily and with such little inputs. I have had maybe 60-70% left peddle in a landing and the whole thing goes to hell and overtorques out of control. I have flown many helicopters in real life and massive peddle input would NEVER overtorque a helicopter. Nor would a massive cyclic input but in DCS we have that. A basic back hard pull on the cyclic with a small amount of collective and left peddle input as any normal helicopter landing would require has put me in an overtorque hell with uncontrollable inputs under all the controls more time than I can count. This is not anywhere near a real helicopter controllability DCS! The flight model needs some real fixing.....

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And yet... the guys who have actually flown the Apache seem to think it's fairly accurate. Go figure.

4 hours ago, launchpad72 said:

I have had maybe 60-70% left peddle in a landing and the whole thing goes to hell and overtorques out of control.

Honestly, what you've said here makes it seem like you haven't understood how trim is implemented in the sim.

You're getting "uncontrollable inputs" because you're not centering the controls after trimming, which is the problem most of us were having in the days after release - but once you understand it, you can control it fairly easily.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe it's the flight model on this occasion.

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3 hours ago, LooseSeal said:

And yet... the guys who have actually flown the Apache seem to think it's fairly accurate.

Please don't misconstrue what any SME's say about the flight model into such a wide generalization. There are still inaccuracies on both the flight model as well as the SCAS and powertrain modeling.

Is the raw, overall handling of the Apache close to real life? Yes. However there are still minute behaviors that are not accurate, such as engine oscillations as one example.

A lot of players (not directing this at anyone in particular) seem to keep forgetting that it's only been two weeks since initial release into early access, and are getting wrapped around the axle as if this is the final product. I don't speak for the dev team, but the early access process will take time, just as it has with other complex aircraft like the F-16 amd F/A-18.

I'm not addressing the OP's comments in this reply, since it is difficult to determine the accuracy of his observations without knowing precisely the conditions and control inputs myself. But some players would probably have a more enjoyable experience and learning process if they stop bringing external assumptions to the module (again, not directing this at anyone in particular).

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17 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Please don't misconstrue what any SME's say about the flight model into such a wide generalization. There are still inaccuracies on both the flight model as well as the SCAS and powertrain modeling.

Is the raw, overall handling of the Apache close to real life? Yes. However there are still minute behaviors that are not accurate, such as engine oscillations as one example.

A lot of players (not directing this at anyone in particular) seem to keep forgetting that it's only been two weeks since initial release into early access, and are getting wrapped around the axle as if this is the final product. I don't speak for the dev team, but the early access process will take time, just as it has with other complex aircraft like the F-16 amd F/A-18.

I'm not addressing the OP's comments in this reply, since it is difficult to determine the accuracy of his observations without knowing precisely the conditions and control inputs myself. But some players would probably have a more enjoyable experience and learning process if they stop bringing external assumptions to the module (again, not directing this at anyone in particular).

100% agree! Just look at the Viper. It just recently had an update to it's flight model that radically changed the way it performs and how you can best use it tactically, and it's been out for how long now?

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No you are all wrong. An autorotation would be full collective down with trim to 60kts with a pull on collective before touchdown with left rudder. This flight model will over torque with 130%+ and crash in a <profanity> show of phenomenal matter . This is not normal and shows how bad the flight model is currently programmed. I agree it is still in beta and can take time to fix but yes it is bad really bad.........

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8 hours ago, launchpad72 said:

No you are all wrong. An autorotation would be full collective down with trim to 60kts with a pull on collective before touchdown with left rudder. This flight model will over torque with 130%+ and crash in a <profanity> show of phenomenal matter . This is not normal and shows how bad the flight model is currently programmed. I agree it is still in beta and can take time to fix but yes it is bad really bad.........

Do you have a track file of this event?

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8 hours ago, launchpad72 said:

No you are all wrong. An autorotation would be full collective down with trim to 60kts with a pull on collective before touchdown with left rudder. This flight model will over torque with 130%+ and crash in a <profanity> show of phenomenal matter . This is not normal and shows how bad the flight model is currently programmed. I agree it is still in beta and can take time to fix but yes it is bad really bad.........

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9 hours ago, launchpad72 said:

No you are all wrong. An autorotation would be full collective down with trim to 60kts with a pull on collective before touchdown with left rudder. This flight model will over torque with 130%+ and crash in a <profanity> show of phenomenal matter . This is not normal and shows how bad the flight model is currently programmed. I agree it is still in beta and can take time to fix but yes it is bad really bad.........

Ok, rant all you want, but you don't know what you are talking about.

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On 4/3/2022 at 6:50 AM, launchpad72 said:

I have noticed that the current flight model overtorques way too easily and with such little inputs. I have had maybe 60-70% left peddle in a landing and the whole thing goes to hell and overtorques out of control. I have flown many helicopters in real life and massive peddle input would NEVER overtorque a helicopter. Nor would a massive cyclic input but in DCS we have that. A basic back hard pull on the cyclic with a small amount of collective and left peddle input as any normal helicopter landing would require has put me in an overtorque hell with uncontrollable inputs under all the controls more time than I can count. This is not anywhere near a real helicopter controllability DCS! The flight model needs some real fixing.....

The way you describe the effects and the terms you use it's hard to believe you've ever been near a real helicopter, let alone fly one.

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It's all too easy to say "X is wrong and Y is way off" but also very hard to describe everything that's happening when you think it's gone wrong. Perhaps if you @launchpad72 could provide a short track that demonstrates the issues you have then it would be easier for us all to understand exactly what's going on.

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This thread shouldn't turn into a dogpile on anyone (OP or otherwise), but as I stated in the last paragraph of my earlier post above, basing assessments on other helicopters is foolish.

The Apache does not handle like a Bell 206 or a Robinson R44, nor does it handle like the Mi-24 Hind. Those weren't the comparisons made in this thread, but those are previous comparisons made in recent weeks in other threads or online mediums. Basic helicopter principles of course apply, but specific behaviors especially as it regards to power margins, autorotation speeds, and tail rotor authority are not generic; and any statements declaring accuracy/inaccuracy when compared to any other helicopter besides a real AH-64 are silly.

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25 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

This thread shouldn't turn into a dogpile on anyone (OP or otherwise), but as I stated in the last paragraph of my earlier post above, basing assessments on other helicopters is foolish.

The Apache does not handle like a Bell 206 or a Robinson R44, nor does it handle like the Mi-24 Hind. Those weren't the comparisons made in this thread, but those are previous comparisons made in recent weeks in other threads or online mediums. Basic helicopter principles of course apply, but specific behaviors especially as it regards to power margins, autorotation speeds, and tail rotor authority are not generic; and any statements declaring accuracy/inaccuracy when compared to any other helicopter besides a real AH-64 are silly.

I wholeheartedly agree! It analogous to saying such and such manoeuvre should be possible in an F-104 because I’ve done it in an F-22. Different aircraft handle and perform differently. 

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13 minutes ago, frostycab said:

I wholeheartedly agree! It analogous to saying such and such manoeuvre should be possible in an F-104 because I’ve done it in an F-22. Different aircraft handle and perform differently. 

No one would make that comparison.  A better example would be a contemporary: like F-16 vs F-22.  Or better yet, Su-35 and F-22.

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11 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

No one would make that comparison.  A better example would be a contemporary: like F-16 vs F-22.  Or better yet, Su-35 and F-22.

Fair enough. The point still stands. Different airframe, weight, engines, rotors... There are bound to be differences.

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As @Flappie would say:   "A track, or it didn't happen."

Tracks may not be reliable for making videos, but they are reliable and helpful for analyzing metadata.

Another useful item is log files. Saved Games/DCS open beta/logs.

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