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Air to air refuel


Frost

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I learned to air to air refuel with the original boxed version of the A-10C and I thought it was one of the most difficult things I've ever learned. And I still need 2-6 reconnects fully armed and with empty wing- and almost empty fuselage tanks. But I would certainly feel confident enough to say "I'm able to AAR in DCS". Today I bought the F-14 module and I had no worries about AAR, because #1 I already conqured this challenge with the A-10C and #2 refueling through a drogue has to be easier than through the probe....right?
Wrong. At first I also thought, that refueling the A-10 mid-air is impossible, but there were itsy bitsy tiny little steps of progress, that I've noticed. But with the F-14 I feel absolutely nothing in this regard. I have absolutely no idea how I'm suppossed to ever refuel longer than 10 seconds. And that's when I actually achieve to connect after 15 minutes of bouncing up and down like an idiot. 

The thing that's giving me the most trouble are the wake vortices. So I silenced my ego and unchecked them in the options menu. The (not so) funny thing is, that after I've loaded that Instant action refuel mission again the wake turbulences were still there. They might be less strong, but I'm not sure about that. So I my question is, does the F-14 module have its own aerodynamics simulation going on on top of DCS' ? 

I really love this aircraft. I mean I grew up with Tomcats and Hueys in those 80 movies. And therefore it is extra infuriating that I probably can never refuel this aircraft mid-air. I hate to admit it, but this is one of those rare instances where I would really like an actual easy mode. Not for anything else, but only for the refueling part.  

I have a TH Warthog with the "famous" (soft)green spring and I think my axis curves are as good as they can be. At least I usually find them very pleasant to fly.  I can fly very precise with them and I feel almost entirely in control of the aircraft -in terms of pure flying. But when it comes to refueling I get slapted around like little b.... from those wake vortices and whilst I'm struggeling to align my plane again and again the drogue just dances around my fuselage as if it wants to mock me for even trying. 

I'm actually kinda sad, because at one hand I love the sim and this aircraft in particular but on the other hand I wish I wouldn't even have started flight simming again. I mean refueling is just a tiny percentage of the myriade of things that you can do in DCS and with the F-14. But if I can't AAR this aircraft everything seems almost kinda half worthless. I don't know.

Constructive replies appreciated

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Edited by Frost
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First of all, put the wings to bomb. Second, form up on the tanker's wing and trim yourself up in both axes. Having the wings move around while you're trying to get gas doesn't help, because it throws off your trim, and if you're out of trim, you're not gonna get anywhere. That's what's different from the A-10, the Tomcat needs a lot of fiddling with trim. Once you're in trim and feeling comfortable flying formation with the tanker, you're ready to start your approach to the basket.

If you do it right, you shouldn't run into vortices. Switch the HUD to AA mode, and try to put the number "30" (on the right side of the pitch ladder) on top of the hose. Keep it there as you slide in. Once you plug, aim your gun cross at the pod and keep it there until full. The Tomcat's throttle response, particularly the B model, is very fast, so forward-back alignment shouldn't be a problem. See where you are when you plug, and when the pod starts getting much closer or any further than that, adjust your throttle a little bit to "catch" the movement. Tomcat's engines are quite powerful, adjustments have to be quite fine compared to the A-10.

AAR isn't super-easy in the Tomcat, but it's very much doable. Drogue is a little harder than the boom, since you're doing all the work and there's less obvious cues for alignment, but I can plug and fuel it up with a CH Fighterstick. It's all a matter of practice.


Edited by Dragon1-1
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You can do it! It is hard though, and that much more rewarding. There are a few procedural things you'll want to do to make it easier.

1. Turn off your curves. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but your balance will change throughout the flight. If you don't stay perfectly trimmed the whole time (you won't) you'll be trying to fly with greater sensitivity for say pitch up than pitch down. It's really hard for your brain to get used to that
2. Set wing sweep to manual (bomb or other). Changes in wing sweep during AAR will also change your pitch tendency.
3. Sounds obvious but try to just stay out of the wake turbulence.
4. Some people set speed brake. I think this is to get quicker feedback when reducing throttle, but it might also bring the engines into a more responsive region. Guessing on the last part.
5. Don't forget to set air source to L so jester doesn't pass out from the fumes and stop giving you tips.

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Thanks people for your very quick replies. The thing is, it is not about AAR in general, but really only about the F-14. Its quite a challenge with most aircraft (I guess) but its either the F-14, or the drogue system, I really have no hope of getting to a satisfying level in regards of AAR with it. I've watched many videos on AAR with the F-14, have put the wings in bomb-mode, tried it with and without curves, stayed as much as I could out of the way of the wake turbulences, used speed brakes for a faster response time just like in the A-10. I did all that. 
Maybe really the only way to have fun with DCS is to use an extension. I'd really prefer an easy AAR mode. But than again, why can I refuel with the A-10, even in a turn, but feel like an entire idiot with the F-14? Is the A-10 way too easy in regards of AAR, or is the F-14 way too difficult?

 


Edited by Frost
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It's actually super easy once you learn the tricks. I can plug the basket after calling precontact within 2 mins every time, no matter which tanker, and I almost never lose contact before taking my desired fuel. Just keep practicing, you'll get it.

And if you're getting hit by wake turbulence you're too high.


Edited by Callsign JoNay
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2 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

..It's actually super easy once you learn the tricks...

 

No, it is not. You might have achieved a high skill level but that doesn't make it by any means super easy. It's like saying brain surgery is actually super easy... you just have to practice and study for 20 years and it becomes second nature. Yup just like everything you study long enough. And what miracle tricks are you talking about? I can refuel relatively steady with the A-10 since I apply all the "tricks" that are applicable. Yes every aircraft has its own quirks, like putting the F-14 in "bomb mode" for example, but I did that. I did everything holy youtube and this forum so far told me about AARing the F-14.
I just don't know how I could in any way apply the info from your reply. If anything I feel even more disencouraged now, because someone just told me, that I'm struggeling with something to the point where I would like to throw my PC out of the window, that is "actually super easy".....

 


Edited by Frost
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6 hours ago, Frost said:

refueling through a drogue has to be easier than through the probe....right?

Yes, it is. I cannot AAR with A-10A or F-15C, but I can in F-14, with much cheaper stick, so? 🙂

I'm not saying it's easy, but a lot of pilots do it, so it's not impossible - some even do it inversed, or at night... just saying.

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And that's when I actually achieve to connect after 15 minutes of bouncing up and down like an idiot.

It's just a matter of practice. How many hours have you put into training AAR or formation flying in the Tomcat?

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The thing that's giving me the most trouble are the wake vortices. So I silenced my ego and unchecked them in the options menu. The (not so) funny thing is, that after I've loaded that Instant action refuel mission again the wake turbulences were still there. They might be less strong, but I'm not sure about that. So I my question is, does the F-14 module have its own aerodynamics simulation going on on top of DCS' ?

Tomcat module has its own implementation of wake turbulence but it's controlled by the same option in DCS, so it's not on top of ED one - it's instead of.

Like others have said - you should fly below the tanker wings and avoid flying into the vortices - that's the correct procedure:

1. approach from behind and below and go up into formation on the left wing

2. go lower and right behind the tanker into precontact position

3. make a "ready precontact" and go forward and a bit higher up to the contact, lining up for the drouge

4. after connecting you go a bit further forward and higher and try to stay there

5. when finished go back and lower, then to the right, then forward and higher up into the formation on the right wing

None of these points places you in the wake turbulence.

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I can fly very precise with them and I feel almost entirely in control of the aircraft -in terms of pure flying. But when it comes to refueling I get slapted around like little b.... from those wake vortices and whilst I'm struggeling to align my plane again and again the drogue just dances around my fuselage as if it wants to mock me for even trying.

It's easy to think you're flying like on the rails until you try to stay in formation - you finally have something to relate your flight path to. It's the same skill of precise control when doing AAR.

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I'm actually kinda sad, because at one hand I love the sim and this aircraft in particular but on the other hand I wish I wouldn't even have started flight simming again. I mean refueling is just a tiny percentage of the myriade of things that you can do in DCS and with the F-14. But if I can't AAR this aircraft everything seems almost kinda half worthless. I don't know.

There are no tricks, just practice. It's best to start with K-130 with wings in bomb mode, when the pitch is not so touchy.

But in the end if learing it does not satisfy you, then don't do it. Like you said it's only a small fraction of what you can do in the Tomcat. Imho it's worth it. It makes you a better pilot, teaches you better formation control and gives you more freedom during missions.

 

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What tanker are you using, at what altitude and airspeed? And which Tomcat model?

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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35 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

What tanker are you using, at what altitude and airspeed? And which Tomcat model?

I fly the "stock" instant action AAR mission. Airspeed is around 350kts. Altitude is around 15000ft.

PS: Funnfact, my slightly retarded wingman won't go over to the starboard side after he's done refueling. So I not only have to deal with the wake turbulences of the tanker but with those from my wingman as well.

If I'm quick enough I can get tanker contact on the starboard side, but that only works as long as my wingman is on the port side drogue. As soon as he disconnects you are forced to refuel on the port side as well. And by that you have to squeeze yourself between your wingman and the tanker.

And btw., why would that stupid tanker even retract its drogue at all. That just puts another layer of stress on the sim pilot. Sometimes you are very close to make contact and all of a sudden the tanker draws the drogue away from right umder your nose.

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I can easily perform the AAR from an edited mission but fail (almost) every time I do the 'Stock' instant one. I guess it might be the tanker airspeed which makes all the difference. Try 250kts at 8000ft instead. As for tanker the IL-78 is my favorite. Lots of body for reference.


Edited by Wrcknbckr
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There is a secret..... 

 

You need to fly with your fingertips only on stick and throttle. 

 

 

I know, it's easier said than done.

I remember that I was totally stiff after my first successful AAR in the Tomcat, due to ham fist that thing in.

It gets better with training, but I fall back into being totally tense during squad events. The rest of the division, and maybe even that pesky Hornet punks, making fun of you if you can't make it in time, that stupid starboard hose dragged away under your nose, tanker turning as soon as you are close to connect.... all these are adding to the stress, but making the stuff worthwhile. 

During my training, I found it very relieving to shoot that stupid tanker out of the sky.... and only 3 - 4 Tanker wings later, it worked. So keep on it, it's rewarding in the end. 

Oh, I believe I won't be able to refuel an A-10 though. 


Edited by Lt_Jaeger
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Your problem, in general, stems from the fact you actually have to fly the Tomcat. 🙂 You do not just ride along like in FBW jets, there's stabilization, but it's fairly primitive. So, you have to trim it up all by yourself, and you have to work that stick and throttle to actually get where you want. The A-10 is way more forgiving, not to mention it doesn't have the swing wing. Sounds like you need to practice formation flying with the Tomcat. The instant action AAR mission really isn't the best for that.

On the flipside, learning the Tomcat will make you a much better pilot in general.


Edited by Dragon1-1
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1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

On the flipside, learning the Tomcat will make you a much better pilot in general.

 

Actually one of the main reasons I've picked the F-14 before the F-18, which seems to kinda work exactly the other way around -too stable. But she will definitely my next aircraft.


Edited by Frost
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One of the many problems I have with the F-14 and AAR -as opposed to more modern aircraft, is the fact that the HUD is obviously not the best. I mean forget the (realistic, I know) low update rate, it has no airspeed indication....what? This wouldn't be that much of a problem, if at least the analogue one would be easy to read. But not only is it basically hidden, it also just shows your speed in 10kts increments. And with AAR a half knot makes all difference.


Edited by Frost
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Of all the modules I own, I find the Tomcat the easiest to AAR in. I can manage in the Hornet, but it's weird and feels unnatural (hyper sensitive and "jumpy" pitch axis, for starters).

Once the Tomcat is trimmed correctly, it's generally really stable which makes it relatively easy to connect and stay connected. I rarely get a disconnect, even if the tanker is turning mid-refuel.

As others have mentioned, manually sweeping the wings back somewhat (bomb mode for example) keeps the center of gravity stable by preventing the wing geometry to change all the time. 

Remember that the extended probe causes drag which needs to be compensated by adding rudder.

My advice would be to forget AAR for the moment and really learn to "fly" the Tomcat: practice precision flying by the numbers (VVI needle centered in level flight, maintain airspeed and heading), develop the necessary muscle memory to do so. 

Also practice formation flying. For example, after playing Reflected's "Zone 5" campaign, which has you fly in formation about half the time, I got much better at AAR.

Oh, and going VR made all the difference in the world for me. Depth perception and a much better view out of the cockpit (less obstruction by the canopy frame) were a game changer.


Edited by Jayhawk1971
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I'm not an entire noob in terms of AAR. I can entirely refuel an almost completely dry A-10 that is at a 100% weight/weapons load. But it's entirely different from the tomcat.

#1 you can use differential throttle in order to make changes in airspeed even more miniscule. If you do that with the F-14 you'll instantly notice a yaw motion

#2 you don't change the aerodynamics of the aircraft in an asymmetrical way, like in the F-14 and its probe(thanks for the hint btw.*)

#3 I wouldn't use rudder at all in the A-10, whereas  it seems to be consence here to use rudder with the F-14.

#4 the refuel boom extents into an area around the tanker with basically zero wake vortices, As opposed to the drogue system that the Tomcat uses.

And so on.

 

*I was asking myself if they actually modeled that, and why my aircraft is allways pulling to the tanker -at least when I'am at the port side. That basically answers both questions.


Edited by Frost
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lots of probably good suggestions here but I didn't see the important thing mentioned.

Dont watch the basket!

There now its easy.

 

you'll focus on the basket pod (near where the fuel line connects on the tanker) and keep tabs from time to time on the basket with your peripheral vision and notes for jester you'll never focus on the basket

The plane will be trimmed (i dont use bomb mode) and you'll advance slow watching the pod on the tanker wing.

Once you connect advance forward probably 1/3 the line length and you''ll focus 100% on keeping the pod on the taker wing in the same spot using a canopy reference point of your choice (normally the pod is near the upper right section of the canopy bow frame for me)  you'll never take your eyes off this ref point or look at the basket or fuel gauge.

 

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I usually use rudder trim after Probe extension and before I connect, to keep my feets off the pedals. Anyhow.... Sometimes it is even easyer to nudge the probe in by using just rudder.

Oh, one more thing I always do. I don't look at the basket, thus I need another reference. To have a decent view, I always lower my seat before AAR, so I got a good look on my reference point, which is the refueling pod. I keep that thing in the top right corner of the front windshield and everything is good.

 

 

Edit: Gun Jam did beat me, as I just saw.


Edited by Lt_Jaeger
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1 hour ago, Frost said:

One of the many problems I have with the F-14 and AAR -as opposed to more modern aircraft, is the fact that the HUD is obviously not the best. I mean forget the (realistic, I know) low update rate, it has no airspeed indication....what? This wouldn't be that much of a problem, if at least the analogue one would be easy to read. But not only is it basically hidden, it also just shows your speed in 10kts increments. And with AAR a half knot makes all difference.

 

There's absolutely no need to have HUD information (or any other instrument). It's all about you positioning your aircraft with respect to the tanker. In fact I used to switch it off completely to have a clear view of the tanker to which you are flying formation with. Focus on a tanker wing point, not the basket, this prevents too harsh corrections.

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31 minutes ago, Wrcknbckr said:

There's absolutely no need to have HUD information (or any other instrument). It's all about you positioning your aircraft with respect to the tanker. In fact I used to switch it off completely to have a clear view of the tanker to which you are flying formation with. Focus on a tanker wing point, not the basket, this prevents too harsh corrections.

I mostly talked about the airspeed indicator. Please tell me that it wouldn't be incredibly convenient to have your airspeed easy to read right in front of you -on the HUD, on the HMD/HMCS or a simple dial gauge air speed indicator right in front of you, that would show your IAS in one knot increments instead of ten(!) knot increments like the tomcat's. Tell me you would hate that, or switch it off.
You might not need your AI, your VVI, your altimeter, or your HSI -if you already found the tanker, but you certainly need to now your IAS even better if it would be in decimal knots. 


Edited by Frost
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I don't know why I would need the airspeed in numbers. It's all about the relative positions. you're in charge of position by use of the throttle. Speed could be anything. It's going back and forth w.r.t. the tanker. Small corrections. Once you are hooked up, slowly proceed forward so you have more room for corrections forward/backward.

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vor 9 Minuten schrieb Wrcknbckr:

I don't know why I would need the airspeed in numbers. It's all about the relative positions. you're in charge of position by use of the throttle. Speed could be anything. It's going back and forth w.r.t. the tanker. Small corrections. Once you are hooked up, slowly proceed forward so you have more room for corrections forward/backward.

Exactly this! 

An indicated airspeed is useful when forming up with the tanker initially (to manage closure rate), to get you in the ballpark. Once you're in a stable formation, the numbers become irrelevant as it's all about relative position within the formation. 

AAR is basically just formation flying, trying to maintain a very specific point in the formation.

Edit: the only part of the HUD that I use is the pitch ladder's right 30 degree mark in AA mode, as a visual reference to align the probe with the hose.


Edited by Jayhawk1971
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An extension of the previous comments is that you shouldn't really be looking down into the cockpit (airspeed or anything else) at all once you're trying to make contact. Keep your eyes up on your reference point and adjust your controls based on its relative movement.

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22 minutes ago, Wrcknbckr said:

I don't know why I would need the airspeed in numbers. It's all about the relative positions. you're in charge of position by use of the throttle. Speed could be anything. It's going back and forth w.r.t. the tanker. Small corrections. Once you are hooked up, slowly proceed forward so you have more room for corrections forward/backward.

Speed could be anything, exactly. I don't care how fast I'm going. But what made my life immensely easier when I was refueling the warthog was to know exactly what that sweet spot speed was that kept me on the probe or let me perfectly fly formation with the tanker, after I accidentally disconnected, or got to slow due to the aircrafts increasing weight.

You say you don't care I say it is a great help. Different tastes, or am I wrong?

4 minutes ago, iantron said:

An extension of the previous comments is that you shouldn't really be looking down into the cockpit (airspeed or anything else) at all once you're trying to make contact. Keep your eyes up on your reference point and adjust your controls based on its relative movement.

I literally just said how convenient it would be to have the IAS up front, literally. As a reference. Not to be fixated on, but as a reference. Am I stupid for wanting the IAS as a reference?


Edited by Frost
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