Air to air refuel

[Frost]

30 minutes ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

Exactly this! 

An indicated airspeed is useful when forming up with the tanker initially (to manage closure rate), to get you in the ballpark. Once you're in a stable formation, the numbers become irrelevant as it's all about relative position within the formation. 

 

You can't say "exactly this" and then follow it up with a "but useful when forming up". Refueling isn't just the actual refueling part its also the advancing to the tanker part imho. And that's when I want my IAS as a reference. I.e. when I get blown away from a wake, or a  crosswind I want to know what my sweet spot speed was that kept me on the probe/drogue or in formation with the tanker. Whilst I'm actually,actually refueling I don't give a crap for the IAS myself, because I have an entire tanker as my reference right in front and to the side of me.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Frost

[Wrcknbckr]

I'd say anything distracting you from the outside view for reference is not helpful. I'm so glad we're having the RIO to call out the fuel state without the need for a head down checking the instruments.

[Callsign JoNay]

8 hours ago, Frost said:

No, it is not. You might have achieved a high skill level but that doesn't make it by any means super easy. It's like saying brain surgery is actually super easy... you just have to practice and study for 20 years and it becomes second nature. Yup just like everything you study long enough. And what miracle tricks are you talking about? I can refuel relatively steady with the A-10 since I apply all the "tricks" that are applicable. Yes every aircraft has its own quirks, like putting the F-14 in "bomb mode" for example, but I did that. I did everything holy youtube and this forum so far told me about AARing the F-14.
I just don't know how I could in any way apply the info from your reply. If anything I feel even more disencouraged now, because someone just told me, that I'm struggeling with something to the point where I would like to throw my PC out of the window, that is "actually super easy".....

 

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to discourage you. I don't agree that AAR is equivalent to brain surgery. It's more equivalent to parallel parking. Hard at first but it's easy when you do it often.

My tips:

- Bomb mode wings.

- Stay below the wake turbulence. If you do it right you'll never feel any turbulence.

- I use a key binding for yaw trim to re-center the slip ball after I extend the probe. I trim for pitch too with maybe just a touch of aft stick pressure to maintain level flight.

- I try to approach the basket as slowly as possible without allowing the closure to become negative. If I can approach as slowly as 6 inches per second, I do.

- I don't make very many throttle adjustments as I'm approaching. Every power change affects attitude so I have more success when I find that perfect throttle setting that allows me to close very slowly and I focus on steering the probe into the basket.

- Contrary to other common advice, I actually do stare at the basket, not the fuel pod, and then I switch my focus to maintaining the overall sight picture after I've plugged the basket.

- As I'm approaching the basket I lean my head to the right and watch it from the side window, not through the jail bars.

- You don't need a HUD. I can do AAR just as easily with my HUD turned off as with it on. I also fly in pancake mode (no VR).

[Frost]

15 minutes ago, Wrcknbckr said:

I'd say anything distracting you from the outside view for reference is not helpful. I'm so glad we're having the RIO to call out the fuel state without the need for a head down checking the instruments.

Again, I want to know the speed that I had when I was connected or in a juicy formation with the tanker, as a reference for when I fall back for whatever reason and want to return as quickly as possible to that point in space around the tanker where my refueling world was still happy and rosy. The airspeed is basically a reference for when you screw up, not for actual refueling, I know that. It also helps when you already know the speed of the tanker, either from the briefing, or the tanker itself.
There is just no denying that an easy to read IAS is one of the most important data in any aircraft and in any flight regime, only with tiny exceptions, like for example through the actual refueling process.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Frost

[near_blind]

You may want airspeed on your HUD, but it's a moot point until something changes and the F-14B(U) or D magic themselves into existence. Luckily an intuitive, hyper granular airspeed indication device accurate down to a fraction of a knot exists for you to use: it's the big plane outside your window trailing a hose. If it's moving aft, you're going too fast, if it's moving forward, you're not going fast enough. 

I'm only being half flippant here. 

There's nothing in the cockpit that's going to be anywhere near as useful as watching the aircraft you're rejoining on. Knowing the air speed is an intermediary step, but it isn't a necessary one. it might have helped you with the A-10, but if getting hung up on not knowing it is impeding you in the F-14, you might want to adjust your approach so you don't rely on it. The way to do that, as other people have pointed out, is to practice flying formation with the tanker until you can intuitively match air speed with it visually, and feel comfortable such that you can position at any point around the tanker that you desire.

 

[Germane]

Actually, everything that needs to be considered has already been said. There is only one thing to do... practice, practice, practice. AAR is difficult! Especially in the F14 and it simply requires a lot of practice to make it work.

[Wingmate]

I would also add that once you get to know the airspeed indicator, a quick glance at the position of the needle will tell you what you need to know. 

 

[Jackjack171]

1 hour ago, Frost said:

Again, I want to know the speed that I had when I was connected or in a juicy formation with the tanker, as a reference for when I fall back for whatever reason and want to return as quickly as possible to that point in space around the tanker where my refueling world was still happy and rosy. The airspeed is basically a reference for when you screw up, not for actual refueling, I know that. It also helps when you already know the speed of the tanker, either from the briefing, or the tanker itself.
There is just no denying that an easy to read IAS is one of the most important data in any aircraft and in any flight regime, only with tiny exceptions, like for example through the actual refueling process.

 

Formation flying (which AAR is) does not mean you need to know the speed of the other aircraft. Yes it helps but you need to just join up and keep moving the throttle! In the days before HUDS, that's how it got done. Practice brother, there's no easy out!

[Lt_Jaeger]

You better get used to the flight instrument being analog, get your scan going and forget about the HUD, otherwise you won't be happy and should consider a transfer to an electric plane.

It is something one have to get used to in the tomcat as well as flying the bird from the moment you apply power for take off till shutdown.

If you can't glimpse down for a quick speed check, you won't be happy around the boat or in any flight regime. I'm happy I got jester for calling out speed during BFM, saving me from taking eyes off the bandits, but in all other flight regimes it is instruments, outside, instruments. Not even talking case 3 or something like that, where the head is down in the pit most of the time. So better get rid of the HUD and know where to glimpse for the necessary informations before it is too late and you have to re-learn the hard way. 

 

 

[Zaphael]

I flip the switch to landing when tanking. Seeing the FPM in relation with the tanker helps me judge my relative position better. Especially when there are power corrections.

Just works for me 

[Frost]

9 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

Formation flying (which AAR is) does not mean you need to know the speed of the other aircraft. Yes it helps but you need to just join up and keep moving the throttle! In the days before HUDS, that's how it got done. Practice brother, there's no easy out!

I thought this forum is a place for grown up, rational and constructive people, instead I get the jist of being in just another "git good noob" gamer forum.  The general tone in this forum is noticeably different from that in non-military flight sim forums.

Sorry, that I'm a little baffled by Grumman's Cockpit layout and HUD design. Everyone who has even the slightest knowledge of aviation and the general philosophy and consensus behind cockpit layouts and HUD designs has to be a little irritaded  by that of the Tomcat. I know you guys wouldn't admit that, because... well I don't know why, but its quite obvious that the instrumentation is very spread out and all over the place. There are funny little quirks, like the FPM takes the 5° line as the horizon line, then there is no digital read out of the IAS on the HUD, but way down on the HSD (if you are in the proper mode) and the actual airspeed indicator isn't just kinda hard to read, it's also partialy obstructed, very small and almost hidden. And don't let me start on the standby compass which is literally hidden. Even WWII aircraft designer did a much better job in regards of readability and intutiveness of the gauges and the general cockpit layout.

And before you guys tear me to pieces, let me tell you a secret, ok? This strangeness, this clunkiness (especially compared to something as advanced as the A-10C II), that it is difficult to fly and also a challenge in every other aspect, that was the reason why I bought this module in the first place. That and the fact that I grew up with Top Gun. I thought it could be very interesting to hear the honest and non macho "git-good" opinions of others on this aircraft. But instead I get braindead suggestions like "practice, there's no easy way out!" I am practicing, really that's nothing I need to get told.  I just wanted some constructive input and your honest opinions. Please don't comment on this. I don't want to waste more time on this topic.

If I have a question in the future I'll watch the respective YT videos. There's really nothing the forum told me that I didn't already knew, or just have learned from Youtube. 

 

8 hours ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

You better get used to the flight instrument being analog, get your scan going and forget about the HUD, otherwise you won't be happy and should consider a transfer to an electric plane.

It is something one have to get used to in the tomcat as well as flying the bird from the moment you apply power for take off till shutdown.

If you can't glimpse down for a quick speed check, you won't be happy around the boat or in any flight regime. I'm happy I got jester for calling out speed during BFM, saving me from taking eyes off the bandits, but in all other flight regimes it is instruments, outside, instruments. Not even talking case 3 or something like that, where the head is down in the pit most of the time. So better get rid of the HUD and know where to glimpse for the necessary informations before it is too late and you have to re-learn the hard way. 

 

 

I also fly the Mustang, the Huey, the KA-50 and the A-10C because(!) they have anlogue instruments. But thanks for another stupid braindead suggestion. I just spend 90$ for the F-14 and the carrier module I won't switch to your so called "electrical plane", whatever you mean by that. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Frost

[Frost]

1 hour ago, Zaphael said:

I flip the switch to landing when tanking. Seeing the FPM in relation with the tanker helps me judge my relative position better. Especially when there are power corrections.

Just works for me 

Exactly what I'm doing  

PS: Incredible, an extremely concise and constructive comment, without any git-good vibes attached to it. Sad that I have to say that I wish more people would be like this in the DCS forums.

[Dragon1-1]

31 minutes ago, Frost said:

There are funny little quirks, like the FPM takes the 5° line as the horizon line, then there is no digital read out of the IAS on the HUD, but way down on the HSD (if you are in the proper mode) and the actual airspeed indicator isn't just kinda hard to read, it's also partialy obstructed, very small and almost hidden. And don't let me start on the standby compass which is literally hidden. Even WWII aircraft designer did a much better job in regards of readability and intutiveness of the gauges and the general cockpit layout.

First thing to remember with Tomcat's HUD: only the FPM is referenced to the outside world. Pitch ladder is not a pitch ladder you know from the A-10, it's an ADI that's been put in front of your face. You have the aircraft waterline and the pitch ladder. That's it. In HUD modes where the FPM is present, it has zero relation to the pitch ladder, and it kind of sucks. Remember, the Tomcat's HUD was one of the first HUDs ever on a Western jet. Use it for weapon delivery and as static reference, but nothing more. Yes, Tomcat's cockpit is weird, but it's not badly designed. At least in VR, gauges are easy to glance at, and to read. However, it was designed before modern practices, it's still basically a Vietnam-era design, even if it arrived too late to fight in the war, and it's similar to other fighters of the time.

Again, "30 on the hose". AA mode, not landing. After rejoin, you don't need your actual airspeed at all (before rejoin it's crucial for judging closure, but not afterwards). Just aim with the "30" and look at the tanker to see whether your closure is good. Practice simply holding formation before trying to hook up, that might help.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Dragon1-1

[Frost]

Most of you guys probably know this guy already(I guess), but for those who don't, a little AAR shop talk from a former F-14 RIO.
 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Frost

[Jackjack171]

23 minutes ago, Frost said:

I thought this forum is a place for grown up, rational and constructive people, instead I get the gist of being in just another "git good noob" gamer forum.  The general tone in this forum is noticeably different from that in non-military flight sim forums.

Sorry, that I'm a little baffled by Grumman's Cockpit layout and HUD design. Everyone who has even the slightest knowledge of aviation and the general philosophy and consensus behind cockpit layouts and HUD designs has to be a little irritaded  by that of the Tomcat. I know you guys wouldn't admit that, because... well I don't know why, but its quite obvious that the instrumentation is very spread out and all over the place. There are funny little quirks, like the FPM takes the 5° line as the horizon line, then there is no digital read out of the IAS on the HUD, but way down on the HSD (if you are in the proper mode) and the actual airspeed indicator isn't just kinda hard to read, it's also partialy obstructed, very small and almost hidden. And don't let me start on the standby compass which is literally hidden. Even WWII aircraft designer did a much better job in regards of readability and intutiveness of the gauges and the general cockpit layout.

And before you guys tear me to pieces, let me tell you a secret, ok? This strangeness, this clunkiness (especially compared to something as advanced as the A-10C II), that it is difficult to fly and also a challenge in every other aspect, that was the reason why I bought this module in the first place. That and the fact that I grew up with Top Gun. I thought it could be very interesting to hear the honest and non macho "git-good" opinions of others on this aircraft. But instead I get braindead suggestions like "practice, there's no easy way out!" I am practicing, really that's nothing I need to get told.  I just wanted some constructive input and your honest opinions. Please don't comment on this. I don't want to waste more time on this topic.

If I have a question in the future I'll watch the respective YT videos. There's really nothing the forum told me that I didn't already knew, or just have learned from Youtube. 

 

I also fly the Mustang, the Huey, the KA-50 and the A-10C because(!) they have anlogue instruments. But thanks for another stupid braindead suggestion. I just spend 90$ for the F-14 and the carrier module I won't switch to your so called "electrical plane", whatever you mean by that. 

 

All of the comments are "grown up" comments! Because you simply do not like the answers that you are getting is a personal problem. Everyone here has tried to help you to the best of their knowledge. The fact that you have an issue with the way the HUD is designed for an aircraft fielded in the 70's is baffling! It's almost as if that makes up for the reason that you have difficulty in AAR! 

And calling everyone "braindead" was uncalled for! It was a true statement that you have to practice! If that's considered "macho" then I guess you've never played sports. For someone that claims to love Top Gun, you sure don't know the platform! 

Good luck with your endeavors.

[Lt_Jaeger]

Guess it makes no sense.

 

You are so hooked up to have all the gimmicks you seems to be used too and it seemed that you are a know it all too, a person who knows how stuff work but the simulation (or even the real thing - how dare they construct such a piece of worthless shoot) is not there to please your wisdome.

I wonder how all the other people manage to AAR, land on a dime, dance in the sky with the best of them, with an simulation of an airplane which should have never been build in the first place.

 

If you want to vent you frustration, fine, but don't do it on people who try to tell you which mistakes not to make. Here is a whole bunch of people who can do it (I can and I'm not a very good virtual pilot) repetitive.... because they worked their way thrue the valley of tears, listen to other people and mastered it. But hey, you got the green spring and a nice curve and if you had a damn hud you could do it all day long, I understand now and will move away with my <profanity>ty get gut attitude. Have fun...... 

[Hector45]

Wow, don't like the advice you're getting so you call forum members braindead. The first thing you need to learn how to control is your emotions.

[Frost]

1 hour ago, Hector45 said:

Wow, don't like the advice you're getting so you call forum members braindead. The first thing you need to learn how to control is your emotions.

I said "brain dead comments". I actually think that most people are quite smart in here(considering the recommendet minimum IQ for DCS). Which makes it even more disappointing to read some of the comments, or parts of them. And I'm sure someone will take my reply here again and twist my words around in order to shoot them back at me. Even though I'm certain that everybody knows exactly what I've meant with every single reply I posted. I know that, beacause you guys aren't stupid, but maybe bored, or you just love forum fights, I really don't know.
But don't hesitate, start firing.

PS: Since weve established that I'm a moron or whatever can we stop this now? And if you guys reply on topic again, maybe you could bother to read at least a couple replys that are written above? Because getting more or less the same suggestions in 2o variations is enough. And no, I don't, I repeat, I don't think your suggestions were stupid, or anything, but I knew all that already from the videos I've watched and from my own experience. I just had a few specific questions, about wake turbulences, and I also just wanted to hear of your experiences and what you think about the module in regards to AAR. But something like that has always a strong tendency to provoke people to lecture the OP. Nobody wants to get lectured and get the same suggestions again and again.  

And I still think a more convenient IAS read out somewhere upfront can't hurt, it just can't.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Frost

[Nexus-6]

20 minutes ago, Frost said:

And I still think a more convenient IAS read out somewhere upfront can't hurt, it just can't.

 

No, it wouldn't hurt anything, but since Grumman didn't build it into their design, what can you do?   It is what it is, I guess.  I seem to recall Victory205, Heatblur's former F-14A pilot and Tomcat SME, once remarking that AAR wasn't the issue in real life that it is in the sim because pilots could actually feel what the aircraft was doing, and that he was sometimes surprised that we are able to manage at all since we're doing everything by visual cues with no "seat of the pants".

 

The bottom line of it is that all of the frustration you're feeling right now, we've felt ourselves, a lot, and everything that's been passed on to you are techniques we've used to make the learning process a bit less tedious.  No one is trying to belittle you or make you feel stupid, and if you were already aware of most or all of what others have told you, then really, the only thing left for you to do is practice.  The important thing is to not get discouraged.

[Hector45]

Dude, if you're getting the same advice from others that have no problem AAR in the Tomcat, don't you think that's the advice you should take? Doesn't matter how much you think an IAS gauge in the HUD would help, it didn't exist in our modeled Tomcat.

[Frost]

9 minutes ago, Hector45 said:

Dude, if you're getting the same advice from others that have no problem AAR in the Tomcat, don't you think that's the advice you should take? Doesn't matter how much you think an IAS gauge in the HUD would help, it didn't exist in our modeled Tomcat.

Do you even read the replys? The whole IAS thing came up later in the thread as a side note. Thewake turbulences and a couple other things are a much bigger problem, but I wrote all that in my initial post. And didn't I just wrote that I already apply what all of those guys wrote? Really, please tell me what drives people like you to just crank out ignorant stuff like you just did? And no, I don't say, that you are generally an ignorant person, but your comment is. Because just read at least my last post again. And after that, just stop it now people, or close this thread, its getting bizzar.

It's likle you are a bunch of starving wolfes that found their prey or something.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Frost

[Callsign JoNay]

This thread.

In before the lock?

[draconus]

@Frost You came looking for help, and you got all the help needed (both proper procedures and game tips and tricks), but then you don't like it and say you already knew all that and even know better, and then you accuse us of being rude and make improper comments to attack you... man, what an attitude. I guess "thank you" and "sorry" never pass through your keyboard. When you ask for advice from experienced virtual pilots you better listen and apply it to your training. If you knew better you wouldn't need to come here in the first place, right?

Let's see again what prevented you from successful AAR in the Tomcat:

1. Lack of air speed indicator on the HUD - you already know how to read it (Airspeed/Mach indicator + HSD) and that apart from the tanker approach you don't need it at all for AAR. It's how it was designed in F-14A/B Tomcat and that is simulated. You said you like the aircraft the way it is so that's exactly it.

2. Wake turbulence - you were told numerous times that you should not fly into it at all at any point during approach or AAR procedures so it's an issue you keep inflicting on yourself. Don't fly into wake turbulence, period. It's right generated behind wingtips so avoid flying there.

3. Tanker and wingman behavior - that's DCS AI and AAR logic code - we cannot change it. If you think you have experienced a bug - make a proper bug report and save a track file in here:

https://forum.dcs.world/forum/474-general-bugs/

or here:

https://forum.dcs.world/forum/423-ai-bugs-non-combined-arms/

4. You mentioned that maybe your stick lack extension - a lot of people with cheaper sticks do it.

Did I miss something? Oh, yes, practice more, less "smart" forum postings. No one is attacking you here but if you see it that way you have bigger problems than AAR in a game.

Edited April 5, 2022 by draconus

[Frost]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

@Frost You came looking for help, and you got all the help needed (both proper procedures and game tips and tricks), but then you don't like it and say you already knew all that and even know better, and then you accuse us of being rude and make improper comments to attack you... man, what an attitude. I guess "thank you" and "sorry" never pass through your keyboard. When you ask for advice from experienced virtual pilots you better listen and apply it to your training. If you knew better you wouldn't need to come here in the first place, right?

Let's see again what prevented you from successful AAR in the Tomcat:

1. Lack of air speed indicator on the HUD - you already know how to read it (Airspeed/Mach indicator + HSD) and that apart from the tanker approach you don't need it at all for AAR. It's how it was designed in F-14A/B Tomcat and that is simulated. You said you like the aircraft the way it is so that's exactly it.

 

 

#1 I'm a very normal guy I'm not aggressive nor do I have a particular attitude. I didn't say I know anything better, but yes, I definitely already knew most of what I've read here. And I'm not complaining about that. It's more the tone of some comments, or the final "get good"/"take it or die" line. Or this "we don't need it, it was built this way, swallow it, or play Ace Combat" attitude. I do swallow it and I will practice until my head explodes -believe me. But is it really prohibited to point out things I might find a little odd in an aircraft? Can I have an opinion even though I'm neither a Pilot, a mechanic, or an ace virtual pilot? 

And I know that I'm not overreacting because I've read some replys that were different from the rest -in a good way. Not necessarily in terms of their factual content, but in their overall tone. The people in this thread that have read those comments know who I mean. So there is actually another way to communicate.

 

But seriously can you guys actually, absolutely and finally stop telling me what an ungrateful begger I am. I got the message. Time to get back on topic or give a crap about this thread. Nobody is forced to read or reply on this thread. 

I won't annoy you anymore. I'm too sensitive and ungrateful for this forum. Please don't waste any more of your time on a noob like me. I won't open another thread, just leave me alone. I'll stuck with YT and reading in this forum only. And you will never hear a personal opinion from me. Seriously just skip this thread. I'm done here.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Frost

[Lurker]

18 hours ago, Frost said:

Again, I want to know the speed that I had when I was connected or in a juicy formation with the tanker, as a reference for when I fall back for whatever reason and want to return as quickly as possible to that point in space around the tanker where my refueling world was still happy and rosy. The airspeed is basically a reference for when you screw up, not for actual refueling, I know that. It also helps when you already know the speed of the tanker, either from the briefing, or the tanker itself.
There is just no denying that an easy to read IAS is one of the most important data in any aircraft and in any flight regime, only with tiny exceptions, like for example through the actual refueling process.

 

 

What if the tanker is now flying at a completely different speed? Relying on the HUD and your instruments when doing AAR is not recommended. Ever.