Damn, I need some AAR help!

[Digitalvole]

I’m trying to learn to AAR in the Viper, I can manage it in the Hornet (not pretty, but I can get a full tank with only one disconnect, tanker turning and wake turbulence is on) but I’m having a fair bit of trouble in the Viper, and was hoping you knowledgeable folks may be able to offer me some helpful tips.

I think I can identify where am having  trouble, mainly throttle control and PIO when under the tanker. But it feels quite different to how I managed it in the Hornet.

The throttle first, well it feels like the Viper is good at speeding up but not so good at slowing down. I feel I have to make bigger movements with the throttle and, though I know you’ll never find the “sweet spot” I’m having to work the throttle a lot more in the Viper and I’m really struggling to hold a constant speed. The other thing I noticed was, it seems to speed up by a knot or two just as I reach the boom. Which really throws me off. 
TLDR; I’m always just a bit to fast or a bit too slow when under the tanker.

The PIO, this is the one I’m really having a hard time with. Once under the tanker the jet seems to like to raise or lower its nose quite often. I’m aware the throttle movement will cause this but it happens even with out throttle inputs. Basically I get myself in PIO (both up/down and left/right) far more than with the Hornet and I can’t figure out why. The Viper seems a lot less stable, like it doesn’t want to fly straight and level in the same way the Hornet does.

Any help/advice would be much appreciated, thank you.

[Falconeer]

In RL pilots are moving the throttle constantly, there really is no sweet spot. You always have the wind and when the tanks are getting fuller, the Viper is getting heavier, so you need to compensate for that aswell.

Best is to make tiny adjustments and compensate 1 move at a time. So forward and back, up and down and left and right.

Try to maintain a formation with the tanker instead of focusing on the boom.  And use the director lights on the tanker to stay in formation.

And practice, practice, practice 

[Digitalvole]

39 minutes ago, Falconeer said:

In RL pilots are moving the throttle constantly, there really is no sweet spot. You always have the wind and when the tanks are getting fuller, the Viper is getting heavier, so you need to compensate for that aswell.

Best is to make tiny adjustments and compensate 1 move at a time. So forward and back, up and down and left and right.

Try to maintain a formation with the tanker instead of focusing on the boom.  And use the director lights on the tanker to stay in formation.

Thanks Falconeer, to be fair I’m trying to do all of the above. I suppose I was hoping there may be some handy tips for transferring the skills from the Hornet to the Viper, such as maybe dead zone or curve settings for example. The nose of the Viper really likes to move about I find.

42 minutes ago, Falconeer said:

And practice, practice, practice 

Yup, good advice indeed.

[Dragon1-1]

The Viper should go to landing gains when the AAR door is open. It currently does not. That's why it's harder than it should be. For the throttle, yeah, it's more fiddly, because the Hornet's engines react faster than the Viper's, so you need to account for that.

[Theodore42]

Do you trim much in the Hornet? Because the Viper is trimming itself as you are gaining weight and adjusting the throttle. Paying attention to how the fpm reacts to throttle inputs will go a long way in improving stability.

Fly assuming that pushing the throttle up will accelerate you but also push you into a climb despite the attitude being the same. And when you throttle back to slow down you gotta know you're gonna sink down a little bit even though your attitude will remain constant. Throw in some pitch inputs in anticipation of this.

Changing the Viper's attitude to maintain level flight is not a very intuitive thing when coming from other aircraft. You just have to learn how the Viper trims itself.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Theodore42

[norman99]

When I first started to really learn AAR (granted that was in BMS) the number one thing that helped me was turning the HUD off.

It sounds counter intuitive, but I was subconsciously chasing the vv, airspeed and altitude numbers in the HUD, rather than looking outside. With the HUD off, it forces you to start visually identifying trends, forwards/backwards, up/down etc, and then anticipating them. You start getting ahead of the aircraft rather than simply reacting.

[Digitalvole]

5 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The Viper should go to landing gains when the AAR door is open. It currently does not. That's why it's harder than it should be. For the throttle, yeah, it's more fiddly, because the Hornet's engines react faster than the Viper's, so you need to account for that.

An excuse! Excellent that’s just what I was after! ;D Having done a bit of AAR in the Hornet earlier today the difference in throttle response was surprising, good old Hornet.

4 hours ago, Theodore42 said:

Do you trim much in the Hornet? Because the Viper is trimming itself as you are gaining weight and adjusting the throttle. Paying attention to how the fpm reacts to throttle inputs will go a long way in improving stability.

Fly assuming that pushing the throttle up will accelerate you but also push you into a climb despite the attitude being the same. And when you throttle back to slow down you gotta know you're gonna sink down a little bit even though your attitude will remain constant. Throw in some pitch inputs in anticipation of this.

Changing the Viper's attitude to maintain level flight is not a very intuitive thing when coming from other aircraft. You just have to learn how the Viper trims itself.

 

I don’t tend to trim the Hornet when refuelling unless I’ve got to, ie I’ve dropped a bomb off one wing. Even then I can manage without it being perfectly trimmed out (roll at least).

I’ll try what you suggest about anticipating the nose up and down with throttle.

1 hour ago, norman99 said:

When I first started to really learn AAR (granted that was in BMS) the number one thing that helped me was turning the HUD off.

It sounds counter intuitive, but I was subconsciously chasing the vv, airspeed and altitude numbers in the HUD, rather than looking outside. With the HUD off, it forces you to start visually identifying trends, forwards/backwards, up/down etc, and then anticipating them. You start getting ahead of the aircraft rather than simply reacting.

Im going to try this, as you say it’s easy to accidentally focus on the VV, which makes things worse in hurry. I would miss the speed read out though.

Thanks for the help and advice guys.  

[Exorcet]

7 hours ago, Digitalvole said:

The throttle first, well it feels like the Viper is good at speeding up but not so good at slowing down. I feel I have to make bigger movements with the throttle and, though I know you’ll never find the “sweet spot” I’m having to work the throttle a lot more in the Viper and I’m really struggling to hold a constant speed. The other thing I noticed was, it seems to speed up by a knot or two just as I reach the boom. Which really throws me off. 
TLDR; I’m always just a bit to fast or a bit too slow when under the tanker.

Try putting priority on throttle down over throttle up if you have issues slowing. Know the tanker speed and as soon as you exceed it drop to idle, or near idle. Then throttle back up, anticipating for the loss in speed.

Also realize that as you take fuel and get heavier you will need more throttle to maintain speed. I like to look at my fuel flow to gauge where I need to put the throttle. Initially say for the sake of example 6000 PPH matches tanker speed, I'll try to keep my fuel flow around that number but also slightly increase it as fuel weight increases.

[Digitalvole]

6 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Try putting priority on throttle down over throttle up if you have issues slowing. Know the tanker speed and as soon as you exceed it drop to idle, or near idle. Then throttle back up, anticipating for the loss in speed.

Also realize that as you take fuel and get heavier you will need more throttle to maintain speed. I like to look at my fuel flow to gauge where I need to put the throttle. Initially say for the sake of example 6000 PPH matches tanker speed, I'll try to keep my fuel flow around that number but also slightly increase it as fuel weight increases.

Ah very interesting, never thought to look at fuel flow. Never bother with it in the Hornet but it is very useful in the Viper, thanks for that.

6 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

 

Also realize that as you take fuel and get heavier you will need more throttle to maintain speed.

That’s a problem I look forward to having.

Does the nozzle push you down when it connects or is it just me freaking out when the guy says he’s connected?

Edited April 4, 2022 by Digitalvole

[Theodore42]

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

Does the nozzle push you down when it connects or is it just me freaking out when the guy says he’s connected?

It didn't do that for me in the last patch but haven't tried this current patch.
It's really easy to get into your head when refueling the Viper because there isn't a basket to give direct feedback to where your should be positioned. It might help your confidence to watch a replay from 3rd person to see that the boom operator's aiming for the refueling port is quite agile.

If the guy saying "connect" is distracting you can always practice with the sound off 

[TobiasA]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Dragon1-1:

The Viper should go to landing gains when the AAR door is open. It currently does not. That's why it's harder than it should be. For the throttle, yeah, it's more fiddly, because the Hornet's engines react faster than the Viper's, so you need to account for that.

It does now.

[Dragon1-1]

Good to know, last time I tested it, it seemed to stay in whatever gains STORES CONFIG switch gave you. 

[Dawgboy]

5 hours ago, norman99 said:

When I first started to really learn AAR (granted that was in BMS) the number one thing that helped me was turning the HUD off.

It sounds counter intuitive, but I was subconsciously chasing the vv, airspeed and altitude numbers in the HUD, rather than looking outside. With the HUD off, it forces you to start visually identifying trends, forwards/backwards, up/down etc, and then anticipating them. You start getting ahead of the aircraft rather than simply reacting.

@norman99including turning off the HMCS?

[norman99]

3 hours ago, Dawgboy said:

@norman99including turning off the HMCS?

Yes, this includes turning the HMD off.

[Tholozor]

Alternatively, if you don't want to completely turn the HMD off, you can toggle the display on and off with DMS Down Long.

[Ignition]

19 hours ago, Digitalvole said:

I’m trying to learn to AAR in the Viper, I can manage it in the Hornet (not pretty, but I can get a full tank with only one disconnect, tanker turning and wake turbulence is on) but I’m having a fair bit of trouble in the Viper, and was hoping you knowledgeable folks may be able to offer me some helpful tips.

I think I can identify where am having  trouble, mainly throttle control and PIO when under the tanker. But it feels quite different to how I managed it in the Hornet.

The throttle first, well it feels like the Viper is good at speeding up but not so good at slowing down. I feel I have to make bigger movements with the throttle and, though I know you’ll never find the “sweet spot” I’m having to work the throttle a lot more in the Viper and I’m really struggling to hold a constant speed. The other thing I noticed was, it seems to speed up by a knot or two just as I reach the boom. Which really throws me off. 
TLDR; I’m always just a bit to fast or a bit too slow when under the tanker.

The PIO, this is the one I’m really having a hard time with. Once under the tanker the jet seems to like to raise or lower its nose quite often. I’m aware the throttle movement will cause this but it happens even with out throttle inputs. Basically I get myself in PIO (both up/down and left/right) far more than with the Hornet and I can’t figure out why. The Viper seems a lot less stable, like it doesn’t want to fly straight and level in the same way the Hornet does.

Any help/advice would be much appreciated, thank you.

I think its just practice sadly. I can do it "normaly" now but it took me A LOT of practice.
I usually do AAR at 20000ft 300 CAS. I move slowly to the boom and zoom in "considerably" to see the tanker lights.

When you are low and pull the stick you should also add a little throttle. You need to anticipate to the movements so you don't put yourself on PIO.

From what you said it looks like you're making the corrections once you see the movement intstead of anticipate to them.

Also When you make AAR with very low fuel state you will notice you need to add more and more power to stay with the tanker, specially with external fuel tanks. The F16 refuels very very fast in about 3 minutes.

 

[Digitalvole]

On 4/5/2022 at 5:57 AM, Ignition said:

From what you said it looks like you're making the corrections once you see the movement intstead of anticipate to them.

You’re absolutely right, and thanks for the advice.

Progress report: Progress! Last night managed to refuel from 20% to 100% (not including external tanks.) Only lost connection once. It was very twitchy and more than a bit all over the place, but it’s progress none the less.

Much like the Hornet (and any other plane I’d, imagine) I can’t stress enough how important it is to focus on the Tanker NOT your HUD. I would have turned the HUD off (as recommended) but I found I need the fuel readout so I know if I’m still connected or not. As soon as you start looking at your VV POI quickly follows. The only two things I look at are speed and fuel. Doubt I could do it without those two yet.

Thank you all very much for all the help and advice, and though I need a lot of practice to get good at this I now feel I can start to transition from the Hornet to the Viper. Woo Hoo!

Now I just need to learn how to land this thing, apparently the controlled crash that is the Hornet landing is a no no here.

[Theodore42]

On 4/4/2022 at 11:57 PM, Ignition said:

I think its just practice sadly. I can do it "normaly" now but it took me A LOT of practice.
I usually do AAR at 20000ft 300 CAS. I move slowly to the boom and zoom in "considerably" to see the tanker lights.

My understanding is that the Airforce refuels from 28,000 and up. The F-16 refueling speed is 315kts.

2 hours ago, Digitalvole said:

...I would have turned the HUD off (as recommended) but I found I need the fuel readout so I know if I’m still connected or not. As soon as you start looking at your VV POI quickly follows. The only two things I look at are speed and fuel.

You can call up fuel pounds on the DED, in the Bingo page I think.

[Digitalvole]

4 minutes ago, Theodore42 said:

My understanding is that the Airforce refuels from 28,000 and up. The F-16 refueling speed is 315kts.

What difference will it make if slower than that? My tanker is trundling along at 272kts.

4 minutes ago, Theodore42 said:

You can call up fuel pounds on the DED, in the Bingo page I think.

That is true, I get it up on the DED then flick the little switch that sends it to the HUD. I’ll practice more tonight and if I can keep the HUD on it’s one less thing to do. 

[razo+r]

4 minutes ago, Digitalvole said:

What difference will it make if slower than that? My tanker is trundling along at 272kts.

The slower it gets the harder it will be for you to control your aircraft.

 

[Theodore42]

Chapter 8 in The Forbidden Manual (u know what I'm talkin' 'bout) is all about Viper AAR procedures. There is a lot to study there if you want to simulate how Viper pilots do it.

[Ignition]

2 hours ago, Theodore42 said:

My understanding is that the Airforce refuels from 28,000 and up. The F-16 refueling speed is 315kts.

You can call up fuel pounds on the DED, in the Bingo page I think.

I don't know irl, but in DCS if you're loaded it will be very difficult to refuel at that altitude and at that speed. Maybe if the plane is slick you can do it.

I ALWAYS refuel with 4 missiles, 4 bombs/maverick, 2 fuel tanks, TGP, ALQ-184, and HTS.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Ignition

[Digitalvole]

1 hour ago, razo+r said:

The slower it gets the harder it will be for you to control your aircraft.

 

Right, thanks, I’ll up the speed on the tanker a touch. 
 

1 hour ago, Theodore42 said:

Chapter 8 in The Forbidden Manual (u know what I'm talkin' 'bout) is all about Viper AAR procedures. There is a lot to study there if you want to simulate how Viper pilots do it.

They have AAR tips in Hustler!? Teehee.

I don’t know what the manual is but I’m assuming it’s best not to talk about it…. So I’ll use Hustler

[Dawgboy]

@razo+r @Northstar98 @Tholozor @norman99

Thank you for your tips.  Followed the fusion of them, and connected the first time.  Now to practice...