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PNVS Stuttering


Swift.

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NVG just puts a green filter and brightness stuff over the normal 3D render. PNVS does that AND puts a continously calculated FLIR picture over your 3d render AND also renders the normal lightning and all (like light bulbs etc) in the backround of the picture! Software and hardware are hard pressed with this. DCS rendering/source code/"tech" is pretty old to be fair so new - and truly amazing - modules like the AH64D and the tech that comes with it (like the new IR heat signatures) can even make it worse imho.

This is all a quick description in "laymans terms". 🙂

 

Lets just all cross fingers and hope for the Vulkan API and multicore/multithread 🙂

Here is the latest "news" about it from BIGNEWY and also some info about it from SkateZilla, an ED Beta Tester (just scroll down a bit)

Have a nice read and lets just be patient!

K

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13 hours ago, Kharrn said:

NVG just puts a green filter and brightness stuff over the normal 3D render. PNVS does that AND puts a continously calculated FLIR picture over your 3d render AND also renders the normal lightning and all (like light bulbs etc) in the backround of the picture! Software and hardware are hard pressed with this. DCS rendering/source code/"tech" is pretty old to be fair so new - and truly amazing - modules like the AH64D and the tech that comes with it (like the new IR heat signatures) can even make it worse imho.

This is all a quick description in "laymans terms". 🙂

 

Lets just all cross fingers and hope for the Vulkan API and multicore/multithread 🙂

Here is the latest "news" about it from BIGNEWY and also some info about it from SkateZilla, an ED Beta Tester (just scroll down a bit)

Have a nice read and lets just be patient!

K

Just to put this thread back on track. The issue being seen is not a PC performance issue. I'm still maintaining very high FPS throughout and the game is not lagging outside of the PNVS view.

Additionally, as said in the OP, TADS is silky smooth, which is effectively the same rendering effect. 

What is going on here is a stutter with specifically the PNVS, no stuttering anywhere else during this event.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Swift.:

Just to put this thread back on track. The issue being seen is not a PC performance issue. I'm still maintaining very high FPS throughout and the game is not lagging outside of the PNVS view.

Additionally, as said in the OP, TADS is silky smooth, which is effectively the same rendering effect. 

What is going on here is a stutter with specifically the PNVS, no stuttering anywhere else during this event.

My bad, sorry. My post was solely intended to give reply to dmatt76s post.

Now on the topic, i do also experience the PNVS "stutter" while TADS is smooth. All with average of 50+ FPS in SP.

 

vor 4 Stunden schrieb BIGNEWY:

I have asked for SME feedback. thanks

Thy

 

K

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  • ED Team
On 4/4/2022 at 6:44 PM, Swift. said:

When you move your head around whilst using the PNVS there is a noticeable stutter in the image, compared to when using the TADS and the image is silky smooth throughout.

The PNVS feed is smooth when you aren't moving your head so this looks more like the actual PNVS itself is stuttering as it moves through its motion.

 

To Reproduce:
1. Use the PNVS
2. Move your head

I am not getting any stutter in 2d, I notice it a little in VR however.

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

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1 minute ago, Swift. said:

That's good to hear. Is the stutter visible in the clip I posted or is it all in my head?

The clip does not look to bad to me, can you notice the stutter in the day with no PNVS when you look left or right while moving? 

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

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3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

The clip does not look to bad to me, can you notice the stutter in the day with no PNVS when you look left or right while moving? 

Until we get the Swift answer, here is mine 🙂 I get no stuttering at all looking around when PVNS is off in daylight (in VR). Even when is on, all around PNVS “frame” is veeeery smooth.

As me and other users said, is strange that’s TADS is smoother and less stuttery than PNVS, even with the slowest movement rate.


Edited by nachomaga
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3 hours ago, Swift. said:

Is the stutter visible in the clip I posted or is it all in my head?

It's visible in the clip, and I get the exact same thing (flat-screen with TrackIR, I don't have VR). It's interesting that it doesn't look bad in the clip, but it's really jarring when it's tracking your head.

As others have said, the TADS is very smooth. Additionally, there is no stuttering of anything else when looking around at night or during the day - only the PNVS box. You can look ad the MPD displays in the clip to see that nothing else is stuttering, only the PNVS display.

I wonder if it's caused by one turning their head slower than the max slew rate of the PNVS, so it moves to my current head position as fast as it can and then stops, again and again very rapidly? I don't notice stutter if I happen to turn my head faster than the PNVS can turn (which is not easy).


Edited by charliefox2
Clarified not using vr
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I uploaded a track last week or so, but watching replay in VR, HIDASS is not following the head movement. Perhaps a video is more clear. Sorry for vertical orientation and shaking, is not easy to record and hold the G2 headset, hehehe

I activated PNVS in 0:30 or so, and TADS in 0:58. As you can see, all outside PNVS frame is smooth (even in background, if you can see it). But again, is less obvious in a video than when you are looking through VR headset.

Hope it helps developers.

 


Edited by nachomaga
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1 hour ago, charliefox2 said:

I wonder if it's caused by one turning their head slower than the max slew rate of the PNVS, so it moves to my current head position as fast as it can and then stops, again and again very rapidly? I don't notice stutter if I happen to turn my head faster than the PNVS can turn (which is not easy).

 

I wonder if you might have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps there is some coded delay to the start of the motion, like 0.1 seconds from static to motion when commanded. And what we are seeing is as you described, the sensor catches up and then has to wait for this delay (if such thing exists) again.

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I haven't previously seen this until today, and then got about 30seconds of it. No useful track (2.5 hours) or video captured.  It's definitely a stuttering in the update of the PNVS, no overall framerate drops, and it does not affect the TADS - I was able to swap back and forth 4 or 5 times and the PNVS was reliably affected, but the TADS not.  What I was observing seems compatible with Swift's suggestion that it might be to do with some detail of the slew rate mechanics.

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Hello,
This is a little video to share the exact same problem than Swift explain.
- first is NVG
- second is TADS
- last one is PNVS

It's not a problem of sensor speed to follow the HMD, it's more the framerate of the PNVS video display in the HMD.

I hope it can help you.

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+1, very pronounced at night in VR. I agree with charliefox:

Quote

I wonder if it's caused by one turning their head slower than the max slew rate of the PNVS, so it moves to my current head position as fast as it can and then stops, again and again very rapidly? I don't notice stutter if I happen to turn my head faster than the PNVS can turn (which is not easy).

It definitely seems like the faster response rate, paired with little damping and a naturally always moving head in VR, even minutely would lead to this. 

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It could also be something to do with how sensitive VR head sets are to head movement, maybe the refresh rate set for the in game HMD doesn’t pick up on the micro movement of your real head. This can be easy demonstrated  when using VR zoom.

What could be needed is some sort of filter to remove some of that effect similar to what the OpenXR toolkit does for MSFS. By filtering the micro movement out might also part solve the PNVS being so jerky. I don’t think the PNVS render keeps up with such quick movement, this might also explain why it smoothes out when upping the simulation speed..

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7 minutes ago, RuskyV said:

It could also be something to do with how sensitive VR head sets are to head movement, maybe the refresh rate set for the in game HMD doesn’t pick up on the micro movement of your real head. This can be easy demonstrated  when using VR zoom.

What could be needed is some sort of filter to remove some of that effect similar to what the OpenXR toolkit does for MSFS. By filtering the micro movement out might also part solve the PNVS being so jerky. I don’t think the PNVS render keeps up with such quick movement, this might also explain why it smoothes out when upping the simulation speed..

Its not isolated to VR though, it stutters in all modes of headtracking

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On 4/22/2022 at 1:22 PM, Swift. said:

I wonder if you might have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps there is some coded delay to the start of the motion, like 0.1 seconds from static to motion when commanded. And what we are seeing is as you described, the sensor catches up and then has to wait for this delay (if such thing exists) again.

That seems to correlate pretty well from my observations also.  I was thinking that it was a lower frame rate than the non PNVS area, but applying that star/stop logic would totally look like it was slower frames.  Most likely due to simulating the limited Slew Rate of the PNVS.  Probably a real bear to code.  🙂

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On 5/2/2022 at 11:47 PM, RuskyV said:

It could also be something to do with how sensitive VR head sets are to head movement, maybe the refresh rate set for the in game HMD doesn’t pick up on the micro movement of your real head. This can be easy demonstrated  when using VR zoom.

What could be needed is some sort of filter to remove some of that effect similar to what the OpenXR toolkit does for MSFS. By filtering the micro movement out might also part solve the PNVS being so jerky. I don’t think the PNVS render keeps up with such quick movement, this might also explain why it smoothes out when upping the simulation speed..

Yeah, I think you're spot on here. I've been trying to fight with this PNVS stuttering for a while now with Reverb G2. So far I think there are several causes of it:

- Frame render time. IHAADS seems to render independently of the main picture, therefore it will feel somewhat jerky unless you're completely static. That can be somewhat improved by setting the MDF render to 'every frame' setting, but it won't help a lot and will consume a bit of framerates

- Lack of input filtering from VR googles. My Reverb G2 is quite "noisy" even when the head is relatively static. That's translated to the PNVIS camera and causes additional stuttering as it tries to replicate those micro-movements. Probably needs to be fixed by ED, unless there's a way to tweak it somewhere in VR headset settings.

- The two above are very relevant for VR, less so for 2D. But there's also some visible stutter in 2D, although much less than in VR. Could be a combination of factor 1 and tracking or there could be an additional factor.

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Don't think there is any issue with the VR tracking. If it had been a problem you should have seen the same issue when using the TADS as your overlay on IHADSS.

And the problem is consistent either you are doing a small movement or a large one.

It's very easy to replicate as well. Just fire up the bird on a helipad. Activate PNVS, find something that stands out in the PNVS, like a treeline or something. And just move the head up and down. Don't do it in complete darkness as you want to see the treeline/object as a reference. Also adjust the brightness etc, to make it more visible. 

When you move the head up and down, you should see that the picture from the PNVS "lags" behind. When moving the head up, the overlay from PNVS will "drag/move" above the actual treeline for a brief second before it "snaps" down and comes in "sync" with the actual treeline. Makes using the PNVS a "stutter party" and a real pain to fly at night in VR.

The faster you move you head up, higher above the actual treeline you are able to "drag" the PNVS picture before it snaps down.

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