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GUN problem - Work around engage inside 2900


joojoo
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Hey to all

When I try to use the gun via tads, the bullets do not hit the vehicle that I try to designate. I tried both with and without lazing the target. I attach a screenshot in case that I do something wrong.

thanx a lot.

 

Screen_220405_201641.png

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Your acquisition source is set to your Waypoint, so that's where the gun is firing. It should be set to GHS, for gunner head sight.

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10 minutes ago, Crptalk said:

That's not how that works

Huh. Whenever I set the ACQ source to a waypoint as CPG, that's where the gun fires... I assumed that's how it works 🤷‍♂️

But cheers for making an attempt to either help the OP with his issue, or indeed correct me. Quite the contribution.

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You are at max range basicly, if the AH is wobbeling a bit it further increases bullet spread. maybe even Wind influence. Try maybe 2500 m, still far out but a bit more reliable.


Edited by jayst0r
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Remember too that there are natural vibrations in the helo, that the cannon is not solid mounted but on a fully articulated elevation and traverse mount, that these are not sniper rounds but general purpose 30mm DEFA NATO rounds. Then you have crosswinds at the helo/muzzle, and downrange crosswinds that might be quite different at 2 to 3 km distance. Then there is barometric pressure, not sure if that's calculated in an Apache automatically for a cannon fire solution, the way it is for any modern MBT tank. Also it's an MG, and progressive recoil from previous rounds don't help at extreme ranges.

There is also the natural dispersion of the cannon. They  don't follow each other perfectly like  a laser, they tend to disperse randomly.  Add everything together, and suddenly you get a very clear idea of the difference between max range Vs max EFFECTIVE range. It's only effective if you can hit what you  are aiming at, not the distance at which the shells can go.

Further out, it's not a point target weapon anyway, but an "area weapon". It's only really for point targets in close. 

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Alright, my first answer was wrong. So I tried to replicate it again. The weird thing is - when I fire the gun at over 2.9km (same as the OP's screenshot), I can't see my hits visually land. Anywhere, short or long. At up to about 2.85km or so, I can see them land, after that nothing. I wonder if this is because of my graphics settings maybe. But it seems odd that I'm experiencing the same thing around specifically the 2.9km mark.

Track file included.

 

gundisappearing.trk

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Well in the real world, tracers have a point at which the trace element burns out, but the projectile is still moving. It may be that around 2.95km the trace is right at the point of ending, but I'm not super familiar with DEFA rounds.

There is also sometimes a trace lights up, and in army rounds this is often a bit if distance in front, so that someone can't precisely pinpoint your firing position just from watching trace. But this is generally not a feature needed for flying vehicles.


Edited by Rick50
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2 minutes ago, Rick50 said:

 

Well in the real world, tracers have a point at which the trace element burns out, but the projectile is still moving. It may be that around 2.8km the trace is right at the point of ending, but I'm not super familiar with DEFA rounds.

But I mean the actual impacts on the ground. They just don't happen after a certain distance. The track file shows it clearly. I can't get my head around it. Maybe it's just my potato PC, who knows? Hopefully someone can check it out and confirm if I'm just seeing things or not.

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One point, Did you make the automatic range set to the cannon, In grond select weapons, select gun and in the range tag click , and on the keyboard type A to automatic, and enter, so when you look in the left down will see A plus a number, even in the MFD screen says for example 3000. Also remember the cannon is not as accurate as Hellfires, , mostly is a dispersion weapon with explosive bullets that makes a lot of damage in soft targets.

Hope It helps

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I can't speak  to the ED programming of the rounds, but IRL there are significant limits at distances like that for ballistics. The rotational energy will drop, and as velocity falls to transonic and subsonic, they tend to just give up, in a manner of speaking. It's even possible that the fuse decides to disarm itself too, when the spinning slows too much, though these days some designs decide to just explode at far distance, to prevent a messy cleanup (see RPG-7 rounds that detonate around 900m even if still flying). If that's been programmed (kinda doubting it but never know with ED's attention to real details) then maybe that's what you are seeing. Maybe.

Maybe try 2000-2300m instead. 30mm on a helo is not a "standoff weapon". It's more like a mop. A mop-up of the remaining battlefield when the fighting is done. Or for use as suppression of an enemy suddenly trying to attack you, fire off a couple bursts to get them to take cover. 

Look,  I'm not criticising, as long as you are having fun with "imaginary" ordnance, then enjoy!  I just know from my own experience in real world army, that sometimes even "max EFFECTIVE" range is not really a realistic number. For instance, some GPMG's are listed as having max effective at well over 1100m. Ok, that might be technically true when on a tripod mount, with optical sight all dialled in. But 97% of the time they aren't employed that way, rather just bipod. In that configuration, even 900m is maybe ambitious, and 6 or 700 is a realistic max, further than which becomes a waste of ord. But for an effective ambush use off bipod GPMG's, I'd be picking 400-500m in open terrain.

Basically, to sum up:  don't use the cannon at max range like that. It's not effective use of ordnance that can be better employed at shorter distances. If getting closer is not an option... then maybe you need to consider yourself "Winchester" and fly home for more Hellfires and Hydras. Think of Hellfires as sniper rifles, Hydras as M-4 Carbines, and the 30mm cannon as a pistol. Snipers don't press home the attack using their pistols now do they? 😄

 I don't know prices of these, but it wouldn't surprise me if these 30mm are possibly worth $500 USD each. Rip off two long bursts and suddenly you've expended $20,000 . Not including storage and transportation costs. To have no effect on a $5000 technical with a Dushka on it?


Edited by Rick50
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3 minutes ago, Rick50 said:

Look,  I'm not criticising, as long as you are having fun with "imaginary" ordnance, then enjoy! 

No, no. It's fine. I don't think I made it clear what I'm talking about at all. Picture this - gun is lasing at 2.85km. I fire. All the rounds land pretty much around where I lased, with some nice splashes on the ground. So I move the cursor up 50 to 100 metres and lase at around 2.95km. I fire a burst. Nothing. No rounds land.

It's not about the maximum range. The rounds just seem to be disappearing. They'd still hit the ground somewhere even if they maxed out. And I also don't think that is the maximum range of the gun. Because, as I said, at around 2.85km they are hitting almost exactly where I'm lasing.

Anyway, the track file is there. I have no idea if this is linked to the OP's issue as he didn't really provide enough information. But due to the coincidental nature of the range, there might be something in it. Or there might not. But I've tried my best to work it out!

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2 minutes ago, LooseSeal said:

It's not about the maximum range. The rounds just seem to be disappearing. They'd still hit the ground somewhere even if they maxed out. And I also don't think that is the maximum range of the gun. Because, as I said, at around 2.85km they are hitting almost exactly where I'm lasing.

 

And my guess is that maybe they ARE disappearing!  Remember, calculating each missile, each round fired, for all the thousands of individual pieces of ordnance fired by EVERYONE in the session, all of that contributes to data that needs to go to multiplayer servers, then pinged out to all the other players for EACH round. ED has to decide at which point the data is no longer relevant, and maybe this is a prime example!

 

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Just now, Rick50 said:

 

And my guess is that maybe they ARE disappearing!  Remember, calculating each missile, each round fired, for all the thousands of individual pieces of ordnance fired by EVERYONE in the session, all of that contributes to data that needs to go to multiplayer servers

 

Emm.. I just made a quick mission with literally just me on the Caucuses map in order to replicate the OP's problem. Nobody is talking about multiplayer here. I also think you may have confused me with the OP. I'm not trying to engage things at 3km. I'm trying to replicate what he put in the screenshot in order to understand his issue.

No idea where multiplayer is coming from here. And if ED is making bullets disappear at exactly 2.9km in singleplayer with one aircraft on the map... well, that would be weird.

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20 minutes ago, LooseSeal said:

Emm.. I just made a quick mission with literally just me on the Caucuses map in order to replicate the OP's problem. Nobody is talking about multiplayer here. I also think you may have confused me with the OP. I'm not trying to engage things at 3km. I'm trying to replicate what he put in the screenshot in order to understand his issue.

No idea where multiplayer is coming from here. And if ED is making bullets disappear at exactly 2.9km in singleplayer with one aircraft on the map... well, that would be weird.

Do you think the coding would be different for the same weapon, for single player vs multiplayer?  Or might they make the same decision for both modes? Me,  I dunno! 

It might not be a multiplayer issue, might be just the calculating load, and the concern might be framerates when there's an abundance of furious action going on?


Edited by Rick50
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Are you running the gun in fixed mode here?
Isn't the gun locket at 1,575 meters while in fixed mode?

Should it not be in normal mode for this kind of an attack?


Edited by Feuerfalke

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8 minutes ago, Rick50 said:

Do you think the coding would be different for the same weapon, for single player vs multiplayer?  Or might they make the same decision for both modes? Me,  I dunno! 

It might not be a multiplayer issue, might be just the calculating load, and the concern might be framerates when there's an abundance of furious action going on?

I can no longer tell if you're being serious. ED have decide not to allow bullets to travel further than 2.9km for a gun with a technical maximum firing range of 4,000m +? Come on, man.

25 minutes ago, joojoo said:

so the solution is? I personally tried both automatic and manual shots I also have to notice that the cannon works pretty well in h/cmd mode so the problem seems to be in tads mode.

It's probably best if you upload a short track, as it's not entirely clear what the issue is.

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I am being serious... but "technical max" is USELESS IN THE REAL WORLD.  Truly. A waste.

And even "max effective" value, which is NOT THE SAME THING, is often too generous. More like "in a perfect world, with perfect maintenance schedule, in perfect weather... we might be able to do this: __ ". 

Edit: "technical max" is more often used to figure out the safety factors for planning range firing plans, by the Range Safety Officers. It has no real world use for an operator trying to get hits.

Keep in mind, this is a fairly slow velocity 30mm... it's NOT the same 30mm cartridge as the Warthog's GAU-8, which uses a MUCH longer case with probably double or more powder to get much higher velocities. I'm not even sure if the projectiles are the same or not... maybe they share the same TPT, maybe the same HEI, but maybe not even those.


Edited by Rick50
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13 hours ago, jacobs said:

I tried the gun while in CPG seat using TADS as sight, set automatic ranging and than I use the laser range finder to update target distance.. with constant lasing you can achieve good results.

I think the automatic ranging is for when using the HMD as your sight not the TADS, but I could be wrong.

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15 hours ago, LooseSeal said:

Alright, my first answer was wrong. So I tried to replicate it again. The weird thing is - when I fire the gun at over 2.9km (same as the OP's screenshot), I can't see my hits visually land. Anywhere, short or long. At up to about 2.85km or so, I can see them land, after that nothing. I wonder if this is because of my graphics settings maybe. But it seems odd that I'm experiencing the same thing around specifically the 2.9km mark.

Track file included.

 

gundisappearing.trk 686.12 kB · 2 downloads

This is a bug and has already been reported, work around is to engage with guns inside 2900 you should see the hits then. 

Thanks

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36 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

This is a bug and has already been reported, work around is to engage with guns inside 2900 you should see the hits then. 

Thank you @BIGNEWY!! I genuinely thought I might be going insane... I assume that might have been what was affecting the OP in his screenshot as well.

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Just now, LooseSeal said:

Thank you @BIGNEWY!! I genuinely thought I might be going insane... I assume that might have been what was affecting the OP in his screenshot as well.

yes it looks like it to me. 

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

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  • BIGNEWY changed the title to GUN problem - Work around engage inside 2900
On 4/6/2022 at 6:20 AM, BIGNEWY said:

yes it looks like it to me. 

The OP's screenshot shows the gun is in FXD mode, which means it's not following the TADS crosshair but rather the fixed crosshair that appears in the HUD. Wouldn't that be more crucial than being outside of 2900 meters?


Edited by key_stroked
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