SCAS Question

[RuskyV]

I was wondering if anyone has noticed after a while the SCAS (the green cross in the controls window) can end up out of whack after flying around for a while? I've noticed when manoeuvring reasonably hard that the green cross ends up fairly close to the edge of the SCAS box which I assume is close to the maximum amount of authority the SCAS has.

I have found that the apache ends up having an excessive amount of crab in forward flight due to this, however I must mention that this tends to happen once the fuel is roughly under 1000lbs with no ordinance remaining (have jettisoned the stores). I understand to a degree there will be a small amount of crabbing when aerodynamically trimmed but as mentioned this is noticeably worse once the aircraft is lighter.

I'm sure there are reasons for the above beyond my understanding however the bit that has me confused is after resetting the trim once landed (using the new trim reset keybind) the green SCAS cross remained offset in the SCAS box as with the rudder trim, this does recover slowly but does not completely re-centre, still showing a good amount of "offset".

To reset this completely I had to go into the FLT utility page under the FMC controls, turn off the TRIM option and re-enable it to completely re-centre it. While this fixes the issue its a little strange that the function actually turns off the magnetic brakes on the cyclic and the pedals and as far as I'm aware is not linked to the SCAS. The actual FMC disconnect options in the utility page did nothing to actually reset it. Once reset I take off with the same weight as landing (not taking on fuel or rearming) and it flew with the normal acceptable amount of aero trim.

Unfortunately I don't have a track file as it was in multiplayer so I can only document with words, not super helpful but I wanted to see if anyone else might be seeing this having now mentioned it and perhaps add below if seeing the same or similar thing.

 

[Crptalk]

Holding force trim up will desaturate it

[RuskyV]

I’ll give that a go thanks for your help

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

I don't suppose there is a way to turn off the green cross SCAS indicators? Kind of distracting. But with trim reset now, I guess I could fly without the controls indicator altogether. 

[cow_art]

Does anybody know if the Apache's behaviour during SCAS desaturation is already realistically modelled in DCS?  For me the helicopter currently becomes very unstable while I hold force trim release. As a result I find it quite hard to perform this procedure without wobbling about like it's my first time in a  DCS helo.

I think that currently happens because of two reasons:

- the SCAS does not produce any more stabilizing inputs at all (is that realistic? it sure might be, just curious)

- the SCAS offset (green marker) is zeroed over a period of a few seconds. That leads to a completely new effective trimmed position and requires me to manually (and gradually) add the control inputs that the SCAS desaturation is removing.

Unless I have the Controls Indicator turned on, I see no way to predict how one is supposed to counteract these changes. So is anyone in the know how this is done in reality? Or are Apache pilots just that good that it's not an issue for them?

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by cow_art

[RodBorza]

5 hours ago, cow_art said:

Does anybody know if the Apache's behaviour during SCAS desaturation is already realistically modelled in DCS?  For me the helicopter currently becomes very unstable while I hold force trim release. As a result I find it quite hard to perform this procedure without wobbling about like it's my first time in a  DCS helo.

I think that currently happens because of two reasons:

- the SCAS does not produce any more stabilizing inputs at all (is that realistic? it sure might be, just curious)

- the SCAS offset (green marker) is zeroed over a period of a few seconds. That leads to a completely new effective trimmed position and requires me to manually (and gradually) add the control inputs that the SCAS desaturation is removing.

Unless I have the Controls Indicator turned on, I see no way to predict how one is supposed to counteract these changes. So is anyone in the know how this is done in reality? Or are Apache pilots just that good that it's not an issue for them?

 

 

 

It is something that bugs me as well. Everytime I try to mimic real life behavior, be in the Apache, the KA-50, the UH-60 (mod), it seems that SCAS is turned off and I lose control. I don't believe the real helicopters are like that, because the pilot needs to press the trim button, adjust the position they want,and let the trim go.  It never works for me. The controls seem to get VERY loose, the helicopters get all over the place, mainly in landings or take offs. 

So, what I do is I change the position of the controls to where I want them to be and then tap the trim. It is not reallistic, but it is what works. It works for the Apache, the UH-60, the Huey, the Hind and the Gazelle. Sometimes it doesn't work for the KA-50, sometimes that one needs to trim to be pressed for some seconds to lock in the position I want. But I usually don't press the trim button to move the controls, only tap it.

[agamemnon_b5]

I've wondered about that as well.  I can't speak for the SCAS on the Apache, but on the Black Hawk, Trim Release really only affect the FPS (Flightpath Stabilization) so it doesn't fight your attempts to change attitude and heading.  The SAS 1 and SAS 2 still work to dampen your inputs within its control authority.

In DCS, seems like stability and hold are all rolled up into one system and all are disabled when trim is pressed.  However, I don't know what those other helicopters' systems are like.

Edited April 6, 2022 by agamemnon_b5

[admiki]

IDK about Apache, but trim release on Hind does disable SCAS when held

[Amarok_73]

14 hours ago, RodBorza said:

It is something that bugs me as well. Everytime I try to mimic real life behavior, be in the Apache, the KA-50, the UH-60 (mod), it seems that SCAS is turned off and I lose control. I don't believe the real helicopters are like that, because the pilot needs to press the trim button, adjust the position they want,and let the trim go.  It never works for me. The controls seem to get VERY loose, the helicopters get all over the place, mainly in landings or take offs. 

This is the common feeling between all players, and to me it seems, that PID parameters still require from the developers some tweaking.