Susceptible to small arms fire?

[Hammer1-1]

Anyone else think its too easy to get killed from small arms fire with random head on shots? Also seems like every time I see tracers come my way, an engine gets knocked out of service, or I get a small burst through the armored windscreen and get obliterated. Like literally every single bullet fired at me seems to be the golden BB.  This isnt me complaining; Ive literally had my canopy shot off in the Huey many many times and taken much more damage than the Apache and Im still able to fly most of the time...but if I see tracers come up at me, I know its over in the -64...

 

Heres the tacview. Literally at the 26 minute mark, I took the first of 5 shells and they were all aimed straight at ME.  Second burst killed my wingman. Literally swatted down by AAA like flies! Not even 20 rounds took down 2 apaches in a matter of seconds.

Tacview-20220405-213141-DCS.zip.acmi

Edited April 6, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[Wychmaster]

Had a look at your track. Do not own the chinese assets pack, but from googling "zbd04a" I learned what I already suspected. It is an IFV with a 30mm autocannon. This is not what I consider to be "small arms fire". The definition of an autocannon is that it fires grenades instead of projectiles. So don't expect to survive a direct hit to the face.

You were flying directly towards it at a range of a bit more than 1 mile. Don't want to debate accuracy of AI units here, but flying towards an IFV equipped with 30mm and probably a modern targeting system at this distance is more or less suicide in DCS (no clue how it is in RL, but I guess similar). Never fly straight at your target and keep your distance (4+ km) unless you have no other choice. The hit rate drops drastically if you fly not directly towards them.

My experience is that actual small arms fire (7.62mm), does not really cause much damage. We have played some fun missions with targets adjusted for cannons and rockets only and took several hits by small arms doing more or less nothing.

Again, IFVs are no easy targets. I find them actually to be more dangerous to a chopper than tanks due to their high rate of fire autocannons and the fact that they often also shoot you with ATGMs. You need to adapt your tactics.

[Scaley]

Absolutely agree with what's been said above.  That vehicle is shooting at you with something similar to the chaingun on the Apache, only from a static firing platform.  Would you expect to be able to kill another hovering helicopter with the gun at 1500m?

People learning to fly attack helicopters need to realise that modern armoured vehicles possess highly sophisticated fire control systems (as or more sophisticated than the TADS you have on the front of your aircraft) and they fire projectiles that travel at up to 2000m/s and are designed to penetrate thick sheets of composite armour. They will make very short work of your helicopter if you present them with a target that is both in range and they can track easily. Hovering or direct nose/tail on flight inside the engagement envelope is a very bad idea.  There is a reason the Hellfire was designed with an 8km range...

[Hammer1-1]

First off I wasnt hovering, was in 80kts and actually launching hellfires at the area. The instant I saw the shells coming at me I went defensive yet they went straight for my head. The above is just one example. Ill keep trying, but Im seeing everytime I see tracers I get shot down. Hell on my last try they shot my tail rotor right off! Guess I am more complaining about AIMBOT AI.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[Gierasimov]

OK,

NO aircraft in DCS is able to withstand a solid, sniper - accurate burst from AK-47 - this is DCS imperfect simulation of infantry and small arms - or the lack of thereof.  

Having certain parts of aircraft getting visually damaged based on "number of hits" is down to the accuracy in damage model, animation and special effects - and we know it is nowhere near being done and dusted in DCS. The most comprehensive one is probably for WW2 birds and I would expect AH-64D has got only rudimentary damage model at this stage anyways. 

Getting a hit from AAA is surely going to bring you down, that is why people bother designing and producing AAA systems in the first place. 

If Shilka's 23mm is enough for its purpose, surely 30mm rounds from any autocannon can do the job as well. 

Yes, in DCS bullets are sniper accurate. 

Lower the skill for the ground unit to make it a little bit less proficient. 

[Wychmaster]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Hammer1-1:

First off I wasnt hovering, was in 80kts and actually launching hellfires at the area.

Tacview says it was more like 60kts (GS: 61, IAS:67). But it doesn't really matter. Even with 160kts those IFVs will kill you if you fly towards them. The only variable for them to consider is the bullet drop. Look at around 22:40. Two of your helicopters get shot at by some tanks at a similar (even closer) distance while passing them. The tanks fired multiple MG bursts but none of them hit, because they are not flying directly towards the tanks.

vor 26 Minuten schrieb Hammer1-1:

The instant I saw the shells coming at me I went defensive yet they went straight for my head.

From the Tacview data, I can only see obvious changes in the flight parameters (turn rate, roll rate) less than a second before the bullet impacts you. That's not nearly enough time to dodge in a slow moving helicopter. You should start dodging the moment you see the muzzle flashes.

But as I said before, keep your distance and never fly directly at them. IVFs are no targets for gun runs. Everything with an autocannon will murder you if it hits you.

[Hammer1-1]

54 minutes ago, Wychmaster said:

 

From the Tacview data, I can only see obvious changes in the flight parameters (turn rate, roll rate) less than a second before the bullet impacts you. That's not nearly enough time to dodge in a slow moving helicopter. You should start dodging the moment you see the muzzle flashes.

But as I said before, keep your distance and never fly directly at them. IVFs are no targets for gun runs. Everything with an autocannon will murder you if it hits you.

Yes, I did roll in close...that wasnt the closest I was to that target yet that was the only time I took ground fire from that area. I also had my wingmen set to attack ground targets. Why they didnt attack is beyond me. Anyways Ill keep at it...but it still seems that every time I see muzzle flashes, its guaranteed Im going to die.

[CaptHawk]

I would approach those IPV's at a standoff position. Now on something like a SA15, we were waiting for the F18's to take them out as we tooled around getting them to light up. But no joy from the F18's(newbies trying to figure out the Harms) so we targeted one and I flew directly at it about 10ft off the ground and the missiles went right over us exploding out of range. I repeated this several  times and we managed to take 3 SA15's before running out of flares/chaff and returning to farp.

[Hammer1-1]

I get frustrated because when I have Hellfires selected and set as LOAL, George misses quite a few shots so most of my missiles go wasted. AI wingmen didnt provide much help either; most of the times I fly this mission I get shot down by antitank missiles...tanks that should have been destroyed already by my wingmen who rejoined up on me because they completed their task of attacking targets of opportunity "supposedly".  I would RTB, see tracers off my port side all of the sudden and ENGINE OUT. First time I got shot at, ENGINE OUT. Try again...get shot at by 12.7mm from the tanks, ENGINE OUT. Try again, get hit in the tail rotor by the same 12.7mm, AUTOROTATE INTO TERRAIN. Im getting 1 shot killed every single time!

Edited April 6, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[SmirkingGerbil]

Every AH-D pilot in their new shiny Apache, that has armor and neat tech - learning the stark realities of CAS, and danger close missions against infantry fighting vehicles and whatnot sporting 20mm and 30mm auto cannons - just like A-10 pilots learned. Brrrt, and titanium tub don't help when a few 30 mm shells rip through your engines or wing surfaces. 2 miles is the min safe distance for mounted heavy machine guns and cannons.

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, SmirkingGerbil said:

Every AH-D pilot in their new shiny Apache, that has armor and neat tech - learning the stark realities of CAS, and danger close missions against infantry fighting vehicles and whatnot sporting 20mm and 30mm auto cannons - just like A-10 pilots learned. Brrrt, and titanium tub don't help when a few 30 mm shells rip through your engines or wing surfaces. 2 miles is the min safe distance for mounted heavy machine guns and cannons.

Still have to know where they're at in order to avoid them.  And Im finding out that these AAA gunners will absolutely aim for the pilot intentionally.

[Bunny Clark]

I've actually been quite surprised by the amount of 7.62mm the Apache can take without any issues at all. For sure the damage model is still very rudimentary, but in relation to actual small arms, the Apache has been very durable in my experience so far. 

[jubuttib]

FWIW I too have been shot down a lot in the Apache by 5.45x39mm infantry fire. Usually it only takes like 3 impacts heard until one or both engines are gone, and I've also lost the rotor completely (just yeeted off into the air) from a couple of rounds impacting the heli.

This in comparison to playing Paradise Lost, where my UH-1H has been taking dozens of hits from the same rifles without issue. =(

Probably at least partially down to luck, but still annoying.

[tromac2010]

4 hours ago, jubuttib said:

FWIW I too have been shot down a lot in the Apache by 5.45x39mm infantry fire. Usually it only takes like 3 impacts heard until one or both engines are gone, and I've also lost the rotor completely (just yeeted off into the air) from a couple of rounds impacting the heli.

This in comparison to playing Paradise Lost, where my UH-1H has been taking dozens of hits from the same rifles without issue. =(

Probably at least partially down to luck, but still annoying.

Just experienced this for the first time. Flying in close to enemy infantry to mop them up with the chain gun and rockets I was outbound and killed by small arms fire through the canopy. It was definitely small arms fire as the infantry were the only units there.

[Hammer1-1]

I keep getting shot down by 12.7mm and its always either a headshot to me or an engine failure.

[hetman_]

I was trying to compare it against Hind, and most of the times when I get shot down in Hind is my tail rotor or main rotor blades. Otherwise it is pretty much bullet proof. Can withstand some 23mm rounds fire or one or two "lucky" 30mm shots. Small arms does nothing to Hind, it can take short range head-ons on tanks, pretty much ignoring their light machine guns. Apache is indeed much less armored, and 12.7 or smaller can kill you - most of the times pilots die or they knock my engine out. However it seems that it is less prone to main or tail rotor damage. Stay fast (~80-90kts) and keep distance. When you get too close and see any rounds fired at you evade immediately until out of effective range.  When hovering keep distance of 6 km to avoid ATGMs.

Also the emergency landing is much easier in Apache and its main gear can withstand quite serious crash land.

[SmirkingGerbil]

13 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Still have to know where they're at in order to avoid them.  And Im finding out that these AAA gunners will absolutely aim for the pilot intentionally.

Takes practice. I know it can be frustrating as a close to the ground operator. Different approach than fasties that just boom and zoom from afar. When we fly as a flight of A-10's and get coords for a target, we always pull up short and wagon wheel to spot and identify all targets before attacking.

Couple of problems though. Wagon Wheel works great, if you know what type of threats you face. If you have manpads or short range SHORADs like a Strela, 18,000 feet will keep you safe. The greater the threat range though, the higher you need to go, which creates all kinds of logistical issues.

So the other approach is with a general idea of where the enemy is, to pull up short and zig zag outside of a medium threat range at about 5 to 15K feet, but if I was in a chopper, much lower would work. That way we bait the enemy to reveal what they have, but are far enough out we can evade. Dunno if the AH has a RWR like the A-10, but two A-10s working together can triangulate RWR threats pretty well. We will fly low enough we can terrain mask if a larger threat like a SA-11 lets loose on us, I imagine in a Chopper terrain masking and zig zag pattern approaches would allow you to get a fix on targets before committing??

Just some random thoughts. Or work with a flight of A-10's, as a chopper. We will do that in our group. A-10's will wagon wheel and use their TADs to identify targets and call out locations and types to the rotor guys. If things get spicy, then we engage also.

Full on group working has fasties doing CAP/SEAD, A-10's working CAS and target identification and spotting, with the chopper fellas working ground targets. That way everyone is covering everyone else's weakness and allows each airframe to flex their strengths.

[LooseSeal]

3 hours ago, hetman_ said:

Also the emergency landing is much easier in Apache and its main gear can withstand quite serious crash land.

I've been amazed how easy it is to fly with one engine. I did a mission the other day where a Zu-23 took out my left engine and removed the left wing stub just for the hell of it. I jettisoned the right weapons stores and managed to fly it back to the FARP for a rough-but-intact landing in an adjacent field.

I think a lot of this thread is more to do with the unrealistic, inhuman accuracy of ground-to-air ballistic weapons in DCS than anything else. But it's been this way for so long. Zu-23's in particular are a much more lethal threat than they should be. I genuinely despise reading in a mission briefing that 23s are in the area, almost enough to make me not want to do it.

I'm personally hoping the AI overhaul includes introducing an element of human error into AI aiming. Like with a 23, the first few shots should almost always be slightly off while the gunner calculates the right trajectory.

[Hammer1-1]

2 hours ago, LooseSeal said:

 

I think a lot of this thread is more to do with the unrealistic, inhuman accuracy of ground-to-air ballistic weapons in DCS than anything else. But it's been this way for so long. Zu-23's in particular are a much more lethal threat than they should be. I genuinely despise reading in a mission briefing that 23s are in the area, almost enough to make me not want to do it.

 

This is exactly what this thread is about. Sniper AI; they know EXACTLY where to aim at this helicopter. The Hind is indeed impervious to everything you throw at it, up to 23mm (?). I know the canopy on the Apache isnt nearly as armored, but I do know it has a lot of armored glass separating the pilot and gunner, and the gunners windscreen is up armored as well...not to mention the seats are AR500 rated armor plating encompassing the pilot about 75% and the ONLY place thats not impervious to small arms is that small plexiglass door from the 1 oclock angle. The AI are incredibly lucky to be aiming at that one little spot. The gunner rarely gets killed when I fly, its always me.

 

A tank took a pot shot at me with a  small burst of 12.7mm and ripped a wing off. Every time I get hit, something breaks.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[jubuttib]

15 hours ago, tromac2010 said:

Just experienced this for the first time. Flying in close to enemy infantry to mop them up with the chain gun and rockets I was outbound and killed by small arms fire through the canopy. It was definitely small arms fire as the infantry were the only units there.

Just to add: My pilot or co-pilot has not been hit once that I can tell, it's always been the heli that breaks (either rotor or engine(s)).

[MRTX]

My conclusion might be a bit harsh, but i would pretty much tell anyone with that problem to get better in using the Apache and its abilities. 

You have a stand off range of 7+ kilometers, so use that to your advantage. And if we're already at the point of you being shot down by autocannon or smallarms fire, you either did not perform a good threat assesment, or you've been suprised by it and did not evade it fast enough. 

[Hammer1-1]

2 hours ago, MRTX said:

My conclusion might be a bit harsh, but i would pretty much tell anyone with that problem to get better in using the Apache and its abilities. 

You have a stand off range of 7+ kilometers, so use that to your advantage. And if we're already at the point of you being shot down by autocannon or smallarms fire, you either did not perform a good threat assesment, or you've been suprised by it and did not evade it fast enough. 

My conclusion might be a bit more realistic, but <profanity> happens more in the Apache than the Huey. Just throwing that out there.