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Questions on S8 rockets.


CrazyGman

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So currently the best rockets S-8 rockets for the Hind are the S-80FP2 rockets, as they do the most damage which makes sense because it's a HE frag rocket with a large warhead and the weight that goes with it, and it also is quite new, having come out in the 2010s

However the S-8KOM is generally the most used rocket of the S-8 family and it's a HEAT frag warhead as well with a lethal range of about 12m supposedly.

In game splash damage seems to be quite weak, and when compared to the M229 rocket which had a much smaller warhead weight wise. 

Does anyone else feel the damage of the S-8KOM rocket is weaker then it should be. Also can anyone confirm the date when S-80FP2s came out?


Edited by CrazyGman
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The KOMs appear to have to directly hit a vehicle to damage it.  

I agree the FP2's are the best.  According to wiki, the FP's are the latest technology, have a larger warhead, more range, and better accuracy.

Splash damage  is there, but what's missing is the fragmentation.

Until that is modeled in, the best S-8 rocket variant we've got is the FP2.  

From what I hear about the S-5, if you shot and hit a person with one, they'd be mad at you if they somehow found out about it. 

S-24's or S-13's on the other hand - those are bad ass.

 

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In game ofp is fictional both in characteristics and function. 

Consider it a 17 pdr rocket. It's a KOM reskin with heavy warhead. 

They could model s8dm thermobaric instead as a conventional weapon. 

Real ofp uses a new generation motor 1.5 times more effective range(velocity) and 3 times heavier warhead compared to KOM. Fuse for instant, delayed or air detonation is used. 

Ofp are just coming out irl. Not even being used yet as far as I know.

Irl Usually a KOM rocket is used and it feels like it's lacking damage radius but it's hard to provide evidence on that. 

KOM are better against ifv or weak tanks. Problem is that ifv are so good at shooting you down that you don't want to use rockets altogether unless you are GOOD. Old tanks require 2-3 hits which is often too many. Modern ones are very resistant to KOM rockets. 

Ideal target that justifies using KOM is Bradley,bmp3 and the likes. But they are too dangerous. This is why it's hard to justify KOM rockets in game. 

Ofp are best against weak vehicles such as btr80 because a close hit is enough. Plus ofp are the bane if troopers. Can use even in single pairs per salvo 


Edited by Sobakopes
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Sobakopes is basically right about everything. OFP2 in game is a 2007 pro type never fielded, it uses same motor as KOM and this has much worse ballistics that means it doesn’t work so well with Mi-24P ballistics computer at longer ranges which requires weapon impact to be near boresight to be accurate CCIP. 
 

One reason S-8KOM may not do well, this might as well be reported in weapons bugs, it only does 50% damage against objects, and 50% damage if it hits ground. Other rockets like S-5, Hydra 70mm either deal 100% damage to both or in M229 case 133% probably to make up for the modern explosives in the warhead. Only Mi-24P weapon with same 133% modifier is 9M120F, so it can have realistic warhead value but still make up for how the thermobaric explosive produces 9 kg of TNT equivalent. 
 

You can check all the rocket stats in LUA here,https://github.com/Quaggles/dcs-lua-datamine/tree/master/_G/weapons_table/weapons/nurs

 

   The numbers after “obj_factors”  in same section as warhead define its modifiers against hitting a target directly and “other_factors” for ground, or rather a near miss. Many rockets in DCS already have OBJ damage reduced but 100% damage against ground. There are three numbers after the “obj_factors” and “other_factor” fields, only the first one applies to how much damage it does. If it says 1, it modifies explosive weight by 1. If it says .5, it multiplies explosive power by 50%. Warhead weight means nothing to damage done, only explosive weight in the warhead listed, explosive weight is in the “expl_mass” field. 

S-8KOM page is here https://github.com/Quaggles/dcs-lua-datamine/blob/master/_G/weapons_table/weapons/nurs/C_8.lua

Here is warhead section in attached picture, you might as well use it for bug report and take screenshots of other warhead sections of other rockets. S-5, almost all Hydra variants, have “1” for “other_factors” coefficient or more then 1, like 1.33 for M229. 

 

 

18152D4B-451E-4C3B-BCD2-700031293EDA.jpeg


Edited by AeriaGloria
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2 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Here is warhead section in attached picture, you might as well use it for bug report and take screenshots of other warhead sections of other rockets. S-5, almost all Hydra variants, have “1” for “other_factors” coefficient or more then 1, like 1.33 for M229. 

Crap if that is the case the S-8KOM hits way way less then the much smaller warhead in real life as the M151 

Why the heck is there so much of a difference, where would I even go to report to see if this is a bug?

18152D4B-451E-4C3B-BCD2-700031293EDA.thumb.jpeg.177fc3e19ec445affd01a4a4af5730a2.jpeg.jpg

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34 minutes ago, CrazyGman said:

image.png

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Crap if that is the case the S-8KOM hits way way less then the much smaller warhead in real life as the M151 

Why the heck is there so much of a difference, where would I even go to report to see if this is a bug?

18152D4B-451E-4C3B-BCD2-700031293EDA.thumb.jpeg.177fc3e19ec445affd01a4a4af5730a2.jpeg.jpg

Screenshot_20220408-215612_Samsung Internet.jpg

I already made a S-8KOK bug report. Go to DCS English section, bug reports, then weapon bugs section. 

When looking at DCS LUA warhead expl_mass values, also bear in mind that sometimes ED doesn’t always use the explosive weight, but uses the entire warhead weight as the explosive weight, this is done for M151 screenshot you posted and M229. This is almost always to make up for DCS not having fragmentation modeling. Many Soviet rockets are similar, like S-13 and S-24. 
 

Since M151 is a high explosive only rocket, that is probably why it’s explosive mass is equal to warhead weight, rather then use actual explosive filler number like S-8KOM does. S-8KOM is a shaped charge HEAT warhead, so the only part of it is designed to hit things around it is the fragmentation sleeve. If it’s “other_factors” coefficient became 1, it would probably be more in line with other rockets 


Edited by AeriaGloria

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11 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

I already made a S-8KOK bug report. Go to DCS English section, bug reports, then weapon bugs section. 
 

When looking at DCS LUA warhead expl_mass values, also bear in mind that sometimes ED doesn’t always use the explosive weight, but uses the entire warhead weight as the explosive weight, this is done for M151 screenshot you posted and M229. This is almost always to make up for DCS not having fragmentation modeling. Many Soviet rockets are similar, like S-13 and S-24. 
 

Since M151 is a high explosive only rocket, that is probably why it’s explosive mass is equal to warhead weight, rather then use actual explosive filler number like S-8KOM does. S-8KOM is a shaped charge HEAT warhead, so the only part of it is designed to hit things around it is the fragmentation sleeve. If it’s “other_factors” coefficient became 1, it would probably be more in line with other rockets 

 

Well the S-8KOM is a heat warhead it's also suppose to have a fragmentation component that is lethal to 12 meters. But if the M151 is just high explosive the why does it have a higher piercing weight then the S-8KOM isn't that related to armor penetration?


Edited by CrazyGman
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8 minutes ago, CrazyGman said:

Well the S-8KOM is a heat warhead it's also suppose to have a fragmentation component that is lethal to 12 meters. But if the M151 is just high explosive the why does it have a higher piercing weight then the S-8KOM isn't that related to armor penetration?

 

Piercing? As far as I know, the piercing_mass figure has no effect in DCS. It seems to be related to true explosive weight in some way regardless of LUA figure for expl_mass


Edited by AeriaGloria
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25 minutes ago, CrazyGman said:

Well the S-8KOM is a heat warhead it's also suppose to have a fragmentation component that is lethal to 12 meters. But if the M151 is just high explosive the why does it have a higher piercing weight then the S-8KOM isn't that related to armor penetration?

 

Also, I said piercing has no value in DCS AFAIK. The cumulative field is for armor penetration. Cumaltive thickness is in meters of armor. And if armor it hits is less then cumulative thickness in size, then cumulative factor is applied. In case of S-8KOM, it’s .3 for thickness and 3 for cumulative factor. So if it hits armor less then 300mm in thickness, expl_mass is multiplied by 3 for total damage dealt


Edited by AeriaGloria

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For your benefit, let me post something that is a translation of the LUA read me from long time ago , back when LUA could be edited, people tried changing explosion effect and explosion funnel size. But those only effect graphic effects it seems, and only the HE1, the first coefficient in the series, actually effects damage done and blast radius F8D5108C-2AAA-43E5-8222-A4831384EE75.png


Edited by AeriaGloria

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