BETTER 3d in VR (greater depth) !!!

[winghunter]

36 minutes ago, Supmua said:

Also keep in mind that what you see in VR mirrors do not 100% reflect what you'd see in the VR headset.  It replicates camera/eye angle and positioning but cannot accurately convey sharpness/exposure/saturation/contrast/etc of the VR headset. 

But those effects are due to the displays and lenses of the headset which cannot be altered by a software mod. Software changes in the GFX driver have no effect on the headset physics. What you see in the VR mirror should be the final image created by the GFX card that is sent to openXR/steamVR and then to the headset.

Edited April 12, 2022 by winghunter

[fearlessfrog]

30 minutes ago, Supmua said:

Also keep in mind that what you see in VR mirrors do not 100% reflect what you'd see in the VR headset.

Sure, as there are physical displays and lenses involved. But surely the changes can't be so tiny that there's not a single pixel difference between two 4K before and after images? That doesn't need the mirror to be exactly like the brain perceives things, just different in before/after. Move that swipe back and forth and see..

https://github.com/fearlessfrog/dcs-vrdirectx-compare/commit/25046e4a8d6e14363605ef78b87ae62d8ce00507

If the explanation is 'it is so tiny in color saturation you can't see it even mathematically in the VR mirror' or 'You need to be not on the ground' then it moves it more into VR homeopathy I think.

Anyway, please do test away as the whole area is really interesting.

[dburne]

1 hour ago, winghunter said:

Thanks, thats a great method to compare. If there are any 3D difference, it would show in the 2D stero mirror. All the headset does is present those images to the left and right eye. There is no more processing by the graphics driver before the image reaches the user's eye, afaik. If someone for whom the mod works could create such a comarison image it would be very helpful to understand whats going on.

 

Not really - the effect is not seen sitting on the runway in a cold and dark. It is seen flying around viewing the terrain, hills, valleys, and trees. Look I have said this before. When I tried it sitting in the Apache cold and dark, starting it up, I could not see any difference whatsoever. Then I took off flying over the terrain and it was then it grabbed me.

Edited April 12, 2022 by dburne

[winghunter]

1 minute ago, dburne said:

Not really - the effect is not seen sitting on the runway in a cold and dark. It is seen flying around viewing the terrain, hills, valleys, and trees.

So it only appears in motion, not when you hit "active pause" ?

[fearlessfrog]

1 minute ago, dburne said:

Not really - the effect is not seen sitting on the runway in a cold and dark. It is seen flying around viewing the terrain, hills, valleys, and trees.

There are trees in the test image, are they not good trees?

So to confirm, you don't see any improvement in the cockpit, just in the outside view alone? What headset do you use? Maybe this is an Aero Varjo update thing?

[dburne]

2 minutes ago, winghunter said:

So it only appears in motion, not when you hit "active pause" ?

 

Oh for the love, I have no idea have not tried hitting active pause to do any comparison.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, fearlessfrog said:

There are trees in the test image, are they not good trees?

So to confirm, you don't see any improvement in the cockpit, just in the outside view alone? What headset do you use? Maybe this is an Aero Varjo update thing?

What in blazes are you talking about - are they not good trees?

Look I have described the best way I know how. Not going to repeat myself any longer.

Yes only while viewing the terrain in flight. Sitting in cockpit on ground, no I see no improvement at all.

I use Varjo Aero, and the last update was several weeks ago. I fly on a daily basis.

Edited April 12, 2022 by dburne

[winghunter]

It would explain why i cant see any difference, as im looking at a static 3D scene to compare on/off settings

[fearlessfrog]

2 minutes ago, dburne said:

What in blazes are you talking about - are they not good trees?

I had some trees in my test image here 

..but they don't show any difference in before/after with the left/right view sent to the headset.

I just thought it worth mentioning that there was data from outside the cockpit as well. Not sure why that would offend. Apologies if so.

[dburne]

I see no difference in trees sitting on the ground. Only whilst flying over them. Once in air, everything just has more depth is best way I can describe. I am not stating anything new here, it is what I have been repeatedly saying.

Edited April 12, 2022 by dburne

[rcjonessnp175]

Folks we are all on the same side, it would be great to get to the bottom of this as what is changing what as if we find out exact we can exploit it more if it is a thing we can.  dburne now that you mentioned it i feel flying over the trees is enhanced a bit its as if they are more full in a 3d realm if that makes any sense.  Flying in nevada red flag for viper the mountains when flying high and looking down seemed to have more Geometry.  Who knows maybe its the beer im drinking....

[TylerPL666]

During my digging one thing turn my attention, and wanna ask u what u have in Nvidia Profile Inspector in Digital Combat Simulator: Black Shark profile on SLI Broadcast and compatibility bits? 

 

[Supmua]

3 hours ago, dburne said:

Not really - the effect is not seen sitting on the runway in a cold and dark. It is seen flying around viewing the terrain, hills, valleys, and trees. Look I have said this before. When I tried it sitting in the Apache cold and dark, starting it up, I could not see any difference whatsoever. Then I took off flying over the terrain and it was then it grabbed me.

 

What you described, Don, might be parallax effect which can’t be experienced by looking at static images.  This can increase perception of depth in moving images because background and foreground move at different speeds—the smoother it is the better perception or illusion of depth.  In the old days, 2D side scrolling games used this technique a lot to give 3D appearance.  This is actually more pronounced in MSFS especially in populated areas such as NYC as there’re numerous objects and buildings everywhere.  I find that OpenXR produces much better parallax as the overall motion is smoother than SteamVR, at least on my setup.  On the other hand, there are people who reported that OpenXR causes more stuttering.

As you can see it’s not quite simple how our brains process and perceive things.  Call it a hoax or a fraud if you will but that’s how our brains work sometimes.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Supmua

[Supmua]

About to wipe my NVIDIA files so expect a bunch of images later, I just need to do some planning first.

Out of curiosity, how many people can see a 3D shark in this image?

[Supmua]

Settings:  Varjo Higher preset, OpenXR, personal DCS settings for VR, personal DCS mission with autopause on start.  Headset was left stationary on top of PC case.

Methodology: DDU wipe NVIDIA files, reboot, reinstall NVIDIA, reboot.  Start VR and DCS.  Load mission and recenter then take snapshots.  Quit DCS.  Load NVinspector and set parameters using the settings from the original post in this thread, apply changes.  Start DCS and load mission and recenter then take snapshots.  Files are downsized to 4MB due to upload limits (originally 9MB).

File 11, 13, 15 are from default NVIDIA profile.

File 12, 14, 16 are from custom profile.

Caveats: static images cannot compare parallax effect or smoothness when things are in motion.  VR Recenter is not perfect, may cause slight shift in positions.  As the files were downsized, the sharpness and clarity looks much worse than what you'd actually see on the Varjo Aero where all the little cockpit/MFD texts are crisp.  Also image processing by OpenXR (brightness, contrast, saturation) do not show up on mirror images, crank up contrast or saturation to the max and it will still show no visible changes in the mirror--and this is important because with this test you only compare geometry rendering but not other visual quality factors.

Addendum: by parallax effect, I mean something in lieu of lenticular 3D if you've ever played with something like 3D postcards, etc.  These things don't look that impressive if you just stare at them, but the magic happens when you start to move your head around.  So this test was designed to check the very first question that pops into our head which is whether the static images are rendered the same, and to me they do appear that way from a quick browse.  But the next question should be what happens when things start to move, how are the following frames rendered, etc.  Unfortunately, I do not have gear that are sophisticated enough to test for this.

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Supmua

[winghunter]

Thanks for the effort!

Besides a slight camera offset which can be corrected when overlaying, and a slightly different sun position / time I can see no geometric difference that would result in a different stereoscopic image inside the headset. If this mod would affect convergence or stereo cutoff we would see significantly different geometry in the screenshots.

If its an effect that only appears in motion then, after some thought, I dont think its something that could be a graphics driver setting. Since the graphics driver doesnt actually know whats in motion and what isnt. Its merely rendering a static scene every frame as far as the graphics card is concerned. Except maybe for motion blur or other post processing effects but these need to be implemented by the game and the settings in this mod dont really sound anything like post processing motion fx.

So unless someone can show actual geometry change caused by this mod, im not digging any further into this for the time being.

[Supmua]

My next test will probably be a more subjective one.  Running 2 PCs side by side with direct head to head comparison between the default NVIDIA profile vs custom one.  Probably won't get to do it until weekend, since it's a lot more involving.  I don't have the exact same PCs but it should be interesting.

[dburne]

@Supmua.

Weren't you one of the first praising what these graphical tweaks did for the overall VR experience? Pretty sure you were one of the main reasons I kept trying it until I finally got it working for me. All I can say at this point is I have flown several hours now with the new tweaks over the last coupe of days and absolutely love what it has added to the experience for me. This both in DCS and IL-2. Have not tried it with MSFS 2020 yet or any other VR games but I suspect it will have similar affect.

Ok so back to my Apache learning process in the meantime.

Edit: Yes you posted this on Saturday and was primary reason I started to pursue doing the same.

Quote

Since I got the Aero, I pretty much have no reason to play DCS in flatscreen since the image quality is pretty much the same as my 4KTV.  Now with this 3D stereo enabled, it completely brings the visual experience up to another level, that is not possible on a flatscreen.  It's like watching a 3D movie at the theatre.  The world feels much more alive, and individual trees actually look 3D rather than a mere flat object.  Back to flying now, lol.

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by dburne

[Supmua]

34 minutes ago, dburne said:

@Supmua.

Weren't you one of the first praising what these graphical tweaks did for the overall VR experience? Pretty sure you were one of the main reasons I kept trying it until I finally got it working for me. All I can say at this point is I have flown several hours now with the new tweaks over the last coupe of days and absolutely love what it has added to the experience for me. This both in DCS and IL-2. Have not tried it with MSFS 2020 yet or any other VR games but I suspect it will have similar affect.

Ok so back to my Apache learning process in the meantime.

Edit: Yes you posted this on Saturday and was primary reason I started to pursue doing the same.

 

 

Yep Don, because I saw better 3D effects that I'd never seen before.  The problem is I cannot reverse it.  So it could be that some of us had corrupted NVIDIA profile and for some reason clicking apply changes in NVInspector helped restore it to the original state, and this is the type of 3D we were meant to see in the first place.  Now in medical term that's a diagnosis of exclusion, so I want to do more testings to exclude other factors first but so far it doesn't seem like geometry rendering has changed since I did the DDU wipe...but something definitely changed after I used the NVInspector back then.  In any case, My VR is now looking better than ever and that's a great news since it did help me and you.  MSFS looks even better than DCS, hate to say this lol.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Supmua

[dburne]

1 minute ago, Supmua said:

Yep Don, because I saw better 3D effects that I'd never seen before.  The problem is I cannot reverse it.  So it could be that some of us have corrupted NVIDIA profile and for some reason clicking apply changes in NVInspector helped restore it to the original state, and this is the type of 3D we were meant to see.  Now in medical term that's a diagnosis of exclusion, so I want to do more testings to exclude other factors first but so far it doesn't seem like geometry rendering has changed since I did the DDU wipe...but something definitely changed after I used the NVInspector.  My VR is now looking better than ever.

Yep same for me, and I very recently did a wipe with DDU and clean install of my current drivers, changing these settings in Nvidia Inspector made quite a nice difference for me, whatever the reason. I have not tried to revert them as I am not interested in reverting them. All I would recommend if someone was interested to give it a go and see. If they see nothing no harm just go back to what it was. If they do see the nice change then they are better for it. There have been more that saw a difference both here and on the IL-2 forum, but yeah there are some that did not.

 

[Supmua]

6 minutes ago, dburne said:

Yep same for me, and I very recently did a wipe with DDU and clean install of my current drivers, changing these settings in Nvidia Inspector made quite a nice difference for me, whatever the reason. I have not tried to revert them as I am not interested in reverting them. All I would recommend if someone was interested to give it a go and see. If they see nothing no harm just go back to what it was. If they do see the nice change then they are better for it. There have been more that saw a difference both here and on the IL-2 forum, but yeah there are some that did not.

 

I see great 3D effects now, canopy pop outs, buildings standing out from the ground, great depths in rolling hills and valleys, trees with more volume, nice and smooth parallax when flying around, etc.  Maybe the people who didn't see the changes already have those effects by default.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Supmua

[dburne]

9 minutes ago, Supmua said:

I see great 3D effects now, canopy pop outs, buildings standing out from the ground, great depths in rolling hills and valleys, trees with more volume, nice and smooth parallax when flying around, etc.  Maybe the people who didn't see the changes already have those effects by default.

 

 

Yeah that is what I am seeing as well. As you know the first time I tried it I did not see it either, and had given up on it. But after trying again and being very careful to make sure I entered the 5 values correctly, then oh yeah there it was baby.

I suppose you could be right, although I do pretty good job cleaning out my drivers and clean installing new ones fairly regular. Not sure how my settings would have got corrupted or not right somehow. I mean I have been doing this since Jan 2016. Even through a complete new PC build in Jan 2019. Not to mention two or three GPU's as well. So I had an issue not having VR as it should have been through all that? That would be difficult for me to believe really.

Anyways I am grateful to the help early on and am really enjoying the nice change.

Edited April 14, 2022 by dburne

[Supmua]

I want to try to get to the bottom of this but not sure if I'll ever get there, as I'd rather be playing or doing things that make money.

[javelina1]

I'm using OpenXR, the toolkit, and this nVidia tweak.  Somewhere between the combination of these additions, I'm seeing the most fantastic graphics ever.  I can't tell you how much fun I'm having in the Apache.  Flying through the trees, at the right moment, popup, and ambush the baddies.  This is truly how VR should be! 

With OpenXR, I'm set at 120%, and using MR. For the toolkit, I do not upscale, but I have sharpen set to 60%.  And yep, I threw in these tweaks to my DCS profile. 

It is what it is, and I'm enjoying flying (and no more tweaking).  Have the cold start, takeoff and landing nailed.  Letting George have fun with my firing consent (on the Hellfire's). 

 

 

[feralcat]

1 hour ago, Supmua said:

Yep Don, because I saw better 3D effects that I'd never seen before.  The problem is I cannot reverse it.  So it could be that some of us had corrupted NVIDIA profile and for some reason clicking apply changes in NVInspector helped restore it to the original state, and this is the type of 3D we were meant to see in the first place.  Now in medical term that's a diagnosis of exclusion, so I want to do more testings to exclude other factors first but so far it doesn't seem like geometry rendering has changed since I did the DDU wipe...but something definitely changed after I used the NVInspector back then.  In any case, My VR is now looking better than ever and that's a great news since it did help me and you.  MSFS looks even better than DCS, hate to say this lol.

 

@Supmua What profile are you using for MSFS?  Are you using the global one and it just works on everything?

Edited April 14, 2022 by feralcat

[winghunter]

One more thing just crossed my mind.

Since this mod changes a stereo texture setting, what if it only affects normal maps ? That would explain why there is no actual geometry change visible. Because normal maps create a depth effect without changing geometry. Trees and ground textures have normal maps, as well as some buildings.  Which would explain why this can be seen flying low over scenery.

 

If you dont know what these do, here is a good example to get your eyes trained on the normal map effect. Once you have seen this you will notice normal maps in most modern games.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by winghunter