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ATGM Loft mode


AeriaGloria

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So here’s how my brain works maybe I’m wrong but your sight is the aim point for that missile.  As documents state they use to have the aim point above target on launch and then bring it down to tgt.  Sniper world we engage moving targets, we know range, size of target, and estimated speed.  That with calculations gives us our lead in mil hold both for tracking and ambush techniques.  I imagine maybe I’m wrong but with this sight in a mi24 and it’s reticle same sort of stuff can be achieved.  I’m sure they took time of flight and distance into calculations in order to make “certain” shots possible.  This using brain power and not some modern fancy computer.  But hey I could be wrong but I don’t think I am and I bet crews did some really cool calculations and really making use of that sight for great success.  

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Edited by rcjonessnp175

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1 hour ago, rcjonessnp175 said:

Lots of folks train to use certain techniques and never are given the chance to use them in anger.  I would wager that if a former mi24 pilot was interviewed and was cleared to say so,  many tricks of the trade would be exposed.  Stuff doesn't get into a manual because its absolute non sense,  its in a manual for a reason,  its long vetting processes.  But any ways

 

It's not that the East Germans didn't do it, it's that nobody does it.   

 

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11 minutes ago, fargo007 said:

It's not that the East Germans didn't do it, it's that nobody does it.   

Technique is real, weather its valid these days is  a debatable but it was taught and practiced wouldn't be in a manual, its doctrine,  and back in those days that's all you had was practice day and night.  That's like saying all the training folks get to take somebody down and break their neck, but go down range and never do it because the opportunity didn't dictate it, so now its not a valid technique and nobody does it...

 

Its a tool in the tool box,  its their when you need it.  Anyway now I want to deep dive into the mi24 sighting system... so that's a plus

 

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1 hour ago, fargo007 said:

Do you have a circumstance in mind in DCS where this would be the absolute best choice of engagement techniques?

One instance that I do similar in the Ka50 is On Syria map especially at airfields you have all those Fighting positions you can put Vehicles,  I find in a normal trajectory it will hit the Berm and not the vehicle,  so aiming above and bringing down the sight onto 3/4 mark on a turret seems to get enough of a loop hole to hit.  Find it fun actually.  Now the Mi24 I've rarely gotten into the front seat yet, and sounds like it be a pretty cool skill shot...

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3 hours ago, rcjonessnp175 said:

One instance that I do similar in the Ka50 is On Syria map especially at airfields you have all those Fighting positions you can put Vehicles,  I find in a normal trajectory it will hit the Berm and not the vehicle,  so aiming above and bringing down the sight onto 3/4 mark on a turret seems to get enough of a loop hole to hit.  Find it fun actually.  Now the Mi24 I've rarely gotten into the front seat yet, and sounds like it be a pretty cool skill shot...

Again, it's a beam rider missile, not reflection tracker. Unless you have clear LOS on desired impact point, how exactly would you guide it? How would you calculate when to drop sight to achieve desired hit? And let's not forget that missile will hunt up and down for that beam until stabilised on it, so it's quite possible to induce overshoot.

One more thing, on that book page it says that "under favorable conditions it is possible to hit...." keyword being possible. It's possible that I can lob a hand grenade into tank's main gun and render it inoperable. That doesn't mean I'm going to try.

And from real life military experience, our M70 rifles have that capability and there is a section in manual how to fire rifle grenades with it. We never did it in practice. Why? Because we had better tools to achieve desired effect.

Just like Fargo said, required work from devs outweighs returns here.

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10 hours ago, fargo007 said:

Do you have a circumstance in mind in DCS where this would be the absolute best choice of engagement techniques?

Try attacking a Roland or Tor system in DCS without hovering.

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they asked where to put it in DCS but yes it is an exaggerated scenario.

Otherwise, you can also do everything that AeriaGloria has already mentioned here and it works very well.🙂

Unrealistic yes maybe, but when I look at the latest conflicts many crazy things happen, Mi-24 and other with unguided missiles are on Sead/dead missions, because the situation has arisen so.

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On 4/20/2022 at 7:03 PM, rcjonessnp175 said:

One instance that I do similar in the Ka50 is On Syria map especially at airfields you have all those Fighting positions you can put Vehicles,  I find in a normal trajectory it will hit the Berm and not the vehicle,  so aiming above and bringing down the sight onto 3/4 mark on a turret seems to get enough of a loop hole to hit.  Find it fun actually.  Now the Mi24 I've rarely gotten into the front seat yet, and sounds like it be a pretty cool skill shot...

If you really want to do top attack, just moving the aiming spot up in the first part of missile flight then back on target does nothing. If you don’t gain altitude, once the missiles goes back to being between you and the target it will be exactly the same altitude. 
 

The only way to clear said berms or obstacles, to actually top attack, is to make the missile hit the target from a high angle by being far above the target when missile hits. You can either fire from a large angle above the target, or what I will do to make the missile “loft” is to press missile fire button while moving nose up, and set myself into as much of a climb As I can after missile is fired while still maintaining track. As your altitude increases, the missile will be forced to gain altitude in order to maintain 3 point guidance (as the missile is commanded by radio control to always be directly between you and the target). 
 

At longer ranges, you gain a lot of altitude and increase chance of clearing obstacles next to target or thin top armor of tanks. But just moving sight briefly up in first part of flight does nothing but 

1. clear smoke out of operator view

2. make missile fly slower but more efficient path, however it’s range will almost always be limited by 18 second battery 

3. possibly give you more time to re target if necessary 

4. clear an obstacle only if it’s closer to you then the target 

As many have said, it does not add much if any capability in terms of combat effectiveness, such as targets with close by obstacles or thin top armor. My intent was merely to provide an option for Petro to replicate a real life procedure, and possibly some of the rare positive side effects of it, which would not be very common anyways

 I can see that, as an option in Petro menu a realism focused option would be pretty useless. As people not knowing how the SACLOS system is incapable of true top attack would be curious Because of the option and use it even if it hurts them, like the fact that it would make the missile run out of battery earlier because of slower flight 

So I pretty much rest my case. It would be interesting to make Petro act like a real human, but that is basically it. 


Edited by AeriaGloria
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On 4/19/2022 at 8:55 PM, fargo007 said:

I guess, but this helicopter isn't meant to attack from hover like this. Against hard armor targets, most of which have guided rockets like the AT-6, Svir, etc. you'll just die.

OTOH, I think they could be a little less strict with the match/lineup than they are. 

It's likely typical that the operator will slew up to "chase" launch authority (I do that), and then slew back to target once it's off the rails. Being a little more flexible with that lineup precision might be some good (and realistic) middle ground here.

 

I guess. But I've built missions where I attacked 80's armor that had AAA, and SAM moveing with it a d the hover attack worked well. I put I small forest between us, and came to a hover with my wingmen. Popped slightly up, attacked the SAM first, then dropped once it hit. Then I moved and did it again with the remaining AAA. Had to keep telling two the join, then what to target until we had eliminated the four tanks. Then, and only then we went for the APC's with the gun. So it definitely can work. But you can't just sit there. The Hind is pretty stable. You can pitch down slightly to fire then recover. 

Now as to the OP. Top attack no. It's not something the weapons do. But having Peteo fire and then drop  it on target would be super cool, and alow you to attack from the hover if the situation calls for it. Plus It is how it seems to be done. So seeing the missile go up off the launcher then proceed to target would be pretty awesome. 

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On 4/21/2022 at 8:14 AM, fargo007 said:

LOL - This is a completely unrealistic scenario. If this is the sort of thing you are basing the need for these changes in the Mi-24 on, I have nothing else to add. 

 

Having the option of an elevated attack profile (like exists as an automatic setting on later ATAKA) would be useful for getting over vegetation and berms though - so I think that is a reasonable idea.


Edited by Avimimus
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25 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

Having the option of an elevated attack profile (like exists as an automatic setting on later ATAKA) would be useful for getting over vegetation and berms though - so I think that is a reasonable idea.

 

Of course it would, but the actual helicopter doesn't have this capability because it doesn't have this problem. 

I don't want ED to bend the functionality away from real life, and toward the vagaries of DCS.

 

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9 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Having the option of an elevated attack profile (like exists as an automatic setting on later ATAKA) would be useful for getting over vegetation and berms though - so I think that is a reasonable idea.

 

Later Ataka also had an integrated laser beam riding rear module. Unless you mean the 10 km version. But these versions aren’t compatible with unmodified Shturm platforms like base 9M120/9M120F/9M220O

10 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

I guess. But I've built missions where I attacked 80's armor that had AAA, and SAM moveing with it a d the hover attack worked well. I put I small forest between us, and came to a hover with my wingmen. Popped slightly up, attacked the SAM first, then dropped once it hit. Then I moved and did it again with the remaining AAA. Had to keep telling two the join, then what to target until we had eliminated the four tanks. Then, and only then we went for the APC's with the gun. So it definitely can work. But you can't just sit there. The Hind is pretty stable. You can pitch down slightly to fire then recover. 

Now as to the OP. Top attack no. It's not something the weapons do. But having Peteo fire and then drop  it on target would be super cool, and alow you to attack from the hover if the situation calls for it. Plus It is how it seems to be done. So seeing the missile go up off the launcher then proceed to target would be pretty awesome. 

My thoughts exactly. Might be nice eye candy. But of little to no tactical value I know makes it hard to justify unfortunately. I only do Hover attack when absolutely necessary and weather or SAMs systems require hover attack from specific positions. You can definitely see that the missile on the inner four pylons, which aren’t pointed a degree or two up like the outer four pylons, does drop a bit before it gains speed and in that .5 second after launch where it’s not controlled, making it hard to stay extremely low. But again, unfortunetly I’m sure this will stay a suggestion unless it had a bigger impact🤣

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20 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Later Ataka also had an integrated laser beam riding rear module. Unless you mean the 10 km version. But these versions aren’t compatible with unmodified Shturm platforms like base 9M120/9M120F/9M220O

My thoughts exactly. Might be nice eye candy. But of little to no tactical value I know makes it hard to justify unfortunately. I only do Hover attack when absolutely necessary and weather or SAMs systems require hover attack from specific positions. You can definitely see that the missile on the inner four pylons, which aren’t pointed a degree or two up like the outer four pylons, does drop a bit before it gains speed and in that .5 second after launch where it’s not controlled, making it hard to stay extremely low. But again, unfortunetly I’m sure this will stay a suggestion unless it had a bigger impact🤣

Ability to tell Petrovich to launch at boresight is useful. Unfortunately, thread went off on a tangent of requesting top-down attacks which are unrealistic with SACLOS system.

 

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2 hours ago, admiki said:

Ability to tell Petrovich to launch at boresight is useful. Unfortunately, thread went off on a tangent of requesting top-down attacks which are unrealistic with SACLOS system.

 

Yes, agree. Probably partly my fault for wording my OP the way I did 


Edited by AeriaGloria
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