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Mission 10 (part 2) question


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Hi @ChillNG

Just tried mission 10 (the second part) and was shot down by an SA-10. Before I try again, I'd like to find out if it was me making a mess, or deliberate mission scripting. Going to spoiler tags:

Spoiler

The reason I was shot down was because both my JSOW's didn't work, and the SCUD's survived the first attack. So I had to go in with the Rockeyes and got shot down by the SA-10 while diving in on the target (still got the launchers, but was blasted to smithereens) - obviously the Growler crews were having a sandwich and the Vipers played Sudoku instead of doing their jobs! 😉

Now my question is: is the JSOW's missing their target part of the mission script, or did I do something wrong on my end. My guess would be - them being -A models - that I forgot to set a sensible release height for the submunitions. According to Google searches, the best setting apparently would be 300 feet due to DCS-isms. Can you confirm the JSOW's should work, or shouldn't I bother with fiddling with them too much?

Otherwise, still having a blast with the campaign! 

Oh, BTW, a nice addition for your next campaign (Viper Wild Weasle?) would be some post-touchdown comms like taxi to parking position (via *route*), and maybe crew chief welcoming us back.

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38 minutes ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

Hi @ChillNG

Just tried mission 10 (the second part) and was shot down by an SA-10. Before I try again, I'd like to find out if it was me making a mess, or deliberate mission scripting. Going to spoiler tags:

  Hide contents

The reason I was shot down was because both my JSOW's didn't work, and the SCUD's survived the first attack. So I had to go in with the Rockeyes and got shot down by the SA-10 while diving in on the target (still got the launchers, but was blasted to smithereens) - obviously the Growler crews were having a sandwich and the Vipers played Sudoku instead of doing their jobs! 😉

Now my question is: is the JSOW's missing their target part of the mission script, or did I do something wrong on my end. My guess would be - them being -A models - that I forgot to set a sensible release height for the submunitions. According to Google searches, the best setting apparently would be 300 feet due to DCS-isms. Can you confirm the JSOW's should work, or shouldn't I bother with fiddling with them too much?

Otherwise, still having a blast with the campaign! 

Oh, BTW, a nice addition for your next campaign (Viper Wild Weasle?) would be some post-touchdown comms like taxi to parking position (via *route*), and maybe crew chief welcoming us back.

The JSOWS missing is not deliberate, although something I have encountered sporadically.  Most of the time I see them work, bit occasionally you see them fail to kill a target.  I've heard the odd grumble on the forums about a possible bug and inaccuracy but generally they've been OK for me.  Pre empting these issues I did build a backup into the mission, you only have to register damage on the site to trigger a chain reaction and the whole site explodes.  Hard to say without more data if you missed completely or if the submunitions just failed to damage anything (I did see this happen once).

Worth noting that the jamming is deliberately quite binary, you're either in the protected area or you're not, there is a bit of leeway to fudge the boundary but basically the edge of the jamming area fades away as you get closer to the airbase.  This is deliberate to give you a real dilemma if your JSOW's fail you and you want to push in closer.  Going over the base is risky, in the words of one of my testers, "I've never seen so many Sams!".  Been a while since I used them but 1200 or 1500 rings a bell for a decent fuse height, you're not hitting an armoured target so go for spread over punch. 

I toyed with the idea of taxi directions back to parking spot, but in the end thought the missions are long so how many will use them.  Still might do it yet though, always appreciate the suggestion.

Glad to hear you're enjoying the campaign, M11s coming up, a lot of fun, enjoyed making that one 😀


Edited by ChillNG
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7 minutes ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

Great, thanks for the reply! I'll fiddle with the JSOW settings somewhat (maybe a quick training missions to determine the best release height), then go kill some SCUDs.! 🙂 👍

Awesome, let me know how you get on, I've still not quite got to the bottom of how reliable the JSOW is, and as I'm currently designing a campaign wholly around killing SAMs, the more feedback the better!

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb ChillNG:

Awesome, let me know how you get on, I've still not quite got to the bottom of how reliable the JSOW is, and as I'm currently designing a campaign wholly around killing SAMs, the more feedback the better!

--ATTENTION MISSION SPOILERS--

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, so far my results are:

  • Burst height set to 1500: not a scratch on those TELs
  • Burst height set to 300: got 2 destroyed and one damaged (maybe?); debriefing page said three hit, but one had "bda" next to it.

Mission keeps telling me that the target was not destroyed, Poodle asks if I can re-engage. As my burning remains rained down on the airbase, I paused and panned around with the F2 view: I saw 2 of the TEL burning (the two next to each other), whereas the single one seemed to be intact.

I double-checked the target coordinates while punching them in. I do release well within range, about one-third within the "in range ring" displayed on the HSI. Maybe one of the JSOWs is being shot down by the dense air defense around the base? 🤷‍♂️

 

If anybody managed to destroy the SCUDs, please let me know what your settings were.

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3 hours ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

--ATTENTION MISSION SPOILERS--

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, so far my results are:

  • Burst height set to 1500: not a scratch on those TELs
  • Burst height set to 300: got 2 destroyed and one damaged (maybe?); debriefing page said three hit, but one had "bda" next to it.

Mission keeps telling me that the target was not destroyed, Poodle asks if I can re-engage. As my burning remains rained down on the airbase, I paused and panned around with the F2 view: I saw 2 of the TEL burning (the two next to each other), whereas the single one seemed to be intact.

I double-checked the target coordinates while punching them in. I do release well within range, about one-third within the "in range ring" displayed on the HSI. Maybe one of the JSOWs is being shot down by the dense air defense around the base? 🤷‍♂️

 

If anybody managed to destroy the SCUDs, please let me know what your settings were.

Ok just done some testing, here's what I found...

After 4 attacks on the target had a 50% kill rate, all JSOWS hit exactly where they should using the coords in the kneeboard but did not always kill all targets.  Did a bit more research and in DCS JSOW A is modeled with a degree of randomness in the dispersion of the sub munitions, so this is what's happening here I think, the target is getting blanketed in smoke but not everything within that area is getting hit.

Based on this I have updated the mission and added stronger fail safes so as long as the JSOWs hit the right position and something dies, the scuds will be registered as killed also.

On this updated version, 3 tests gave a 100% kill rate.  Using PP mode, didn't touch the burst height, left at default (note I also left it at default on the initial tests).  I will push this update out for the next patch.

For now, you will be slightly reliant on luck to kill all targets, but as I just said, can happen and to be fair in testing I often got a full sweep of targets.  The mission can still be completed no problems, just might have to take a slight hit on score until the patch hits.

Thanks!

 

 

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Same issue here.

Tacview shows that my AGM-154A hit the target, but because the A version is not effective at all (looks it didn't have the same overhaul rework than the CBUs had), it doesn't count as I've hit my target.

Another option which guarantees a 100% success kill rate would be to switch the A model for the C version.. If you have setup your weapons properly.. it's a 100% kill.

Anyway and in any case thanks 100% times for the great campaign love it 😛 as I did with the PG A10's one !

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1 hour ago, PB0_corse66 said:

Same issue here.

Tacview shows that my AGM-154A hit the target, but because the A version is not effective at all (looks it didn't have the same overhaul rework than the CBUs had), it doesn't count as I've hit my target.

Another option which guarantees a 100% success kill rate would be to switch the A model for the C version.. If you have setup your weapons properly.. it's a 100% kill.

Anyway and in any case thanks 100% times for the great campaign love it 😛 as I did with the PG A10's one !

Thanks v much, glad to hear you're enjoying! Y eah it's just luck at the minute if it kills the target or not.  I've fixed it so on the next update the A will work better.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, ClydeBigBird said:

Just had the in-mission comms tell me the targets were not destroyed, but the after action report says that I killed both SCUDs.

There are 3 scuds, but in two positions (two together at one set of coords and a single at the other), so sounds like one survived.

 

 

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I'm also having issues here. I've tried the JSOWs in PP or TOO mode (with waypoints), and both 1200 and 1500' dispersion heights. No matter how I do it, I wind up getting a random number of kills, but still have the issue where I'm asked to re-attack, and, similar to others I get SAM'd to death.

I think what's happening here is that the JSOW A's submunitions are not wind corrected munitions, so while the JSOWs hit the target at the right spot, the higher your burst altitude, the more likely all the submunitions might float away with the wind. So, you may find setting a much lower burst height will help with hitting the target, but you'll get less dispersion, and maybe not kill them all. If you set the burst height higher, you'll have better coverage, but it may be coverage of the wrong area if there are strong winds pushing the submunitions away from the targets.

I agree, that if we use JSOW-Cs (and maybe 4 of them) you could probably have much better luck. The rockeyes for now are useless since getting that close seems to mean a quick death to the SAMs.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/28/2022 at 1:11 PM, ChillNG said:

Update wasn't listed in the change-log but can confirm the update was made to today's OB patch.

Can you confirm if the update go for steam? I'm having this problem where usually one scud isn't totally destroyed and gives has not hit the target.

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2 hours ago, Hyperion___ said:

Can you confirm if the update go for steam? I'm having this problem where usually one scud isn't totally destroyed and gives has not hit the target.

Yes update should be on steam as well, so long as you're on the open beta version.  If you're on stable the updates not landed yet.

 

 

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7 hours ago, ChillNG said:

Yes update should be on steam as well, so long as you're on the open beta version.  If you're on stable the updates not landed yet.

Ah makes sense, I'm not on open beta. Should probably change that. Thanks.

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I love this campaign so far. But I find the tactics in Mission 10 unrealistic.

First: In this very well defended area I have to look for targets, in case of leftover targets after the first run. At a major airport I only get an approximate figure (north of....).
Clouds prevent visibility, you have to fly lower. Hard to find.
Wouldn't radio transmission of the second flight team's coordinates be more realistic?
Or couldn't poodle help better if I haven't spotted it after a while?

Second, you wrote it in the briefing: "...although the chances of being able to use them (MK-20 Rockeye) successfully seem slim to me... ; JSOWs should ensure that we can maintain a safe distance from the target. ."
After getting the JSOW hit report sentinel asked me to do another attack-run for the remaining SCUDs -> with dumb short-range Rockeyes???
In several hours I tried to hit with the CBU Rockeyes. These bombs seem very inappropriate to me.

How does this work? If I fly low, the AAA will kill me. If I fly up, the SAMs will kill me.
I've defendet more than 5 SAMs, but I'm not getting close enough to the target.
Would other standoff weapons be more realistic?

Unfortunately that wasn't fun. This is only my opinion. I'm not a Marines commander 😉

I know that can't be changed now (it's even in the briefing). I'm skipping and looking forward to Mission 11.

Thanks anyway for the otherwise very realistic complex missions. Keep it up


Edited by gunhead9
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1 hour ago, gunhead9 said:

I love this campaign so far. But I find the tactics in Mission 10 unrealistic.

First: In this very well defended area I have to look for targets, in case of leftover targets after the first run. At a major airport I only get an approximate figure (north of....).
Clouds prevent visibility, you have to fly lower. Hard to find.
Wouldn't radio transmission of the second flight team's coordinates be more realistic?
Or couldn't poodle help better if I haven't spotted it after a while?

Second, you wrote it in the briefing: "...although the chances of being able to use them (MK-20 Rockeye) successfully seem slim to me... ; JSOWs should ensure that we can maintain a safe distance from the target. ."
After getting the JSOW hit report sentinel asked me to do another attack-run for the remaining SCUDs -> with dumb short-range Rockeyes???
In several hours I tried to hit with the CBU Rockeyes. These bombs seem very inappropriate to me.

How does this work? If I fly low, the AAA will kill me. If I fly up, the SAMs will kill me.
I've defendet more than 5 SAMs, but I'm not getting close enough to the target.
Would other standoff weapons be more realistic?

Unfortunately that wasn't fun. This is only my opinion. I'm not a Marines commander 😉

I know that can't be changed now (it's even in the briefing). I'm skipping and looking forward to Mission 11.

Thanks anyway for the otherwise very realistic complex missions. Keep it up

 

Hi, thanks for the feedback, always appreciated!

In a lot of my missions I like to throw a secondary or pop up target at the player to really challenge them.  These are (as in mission 10) optional as they are deliberately made to push you to think on your feet.  The load-out and location are often not ideal, giving you a risk vs reward decision to make - going after the target is going to be (at times very) dangerous weighed against how badly you want a higher mission score and full completion.  If the task is giving you a lot of problems I would always encourage you to abort/decline it and live to fight another day so you can fly the mission to then end...there's often things happening on the way home too...especially in M10.

Your points around other weapons being better suited is a good one, you're right - Mavericks for example would have been perfect for this task, but remember this was a pop up task designed to be a challenge - and mavs would have made it too easy in my opinion.  Also from a mission planning point of view the Rock-eyes are often chosen to be loaded as the spare station leftover is the underbelly one, which is limited in what it can carry, admittedly I could go for a more unusual load out with a centreline fuel tank plus another on the wing, freeing up a wing pylon, but the asymmetric load can be a real issue so try to avoid that.

Main advice I can offer for this task is to stay southwest of the target, if you're getting launched on by radar SAMS its because either the EW flight has already egressed or you left their protective bubble.  The edge of this bubble is set very deliberately just past the pop up target position, part of the challenge I like to set is to get the player to try and build SA of where they are in relation to the threat area.  If you keep the right positioning the radar sams should be less threatening, if you come lower though the AAA and MANPADS will of course be a threat to you as well.

Hope that helps, good luck!

 

 

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Did this mission last night and again tonight. Maybe it was just bad luck but Poodle seemed to have difficulty getting on his way to waypoint 4 tonight after the update, he flew away from it before turning around, also very slowly. 
 

He was ok last night pre-update. 
 

Spoiler

Feels like the instructions for the the secondary need to be a bit better, I realised after getting shot down for the 2nd time that there is another big smoke about 17nm away from the big smoke I was using as a reference.

 


Edited by BeerNfrites
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