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Ah-64D flying difficulty and comparison to others helis


Fukitsuna

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I started flying helos with the Mi-8, then Ka-50 and after the initial struggle dealing with VRS I really enjoyed (and still enjoy) flying them: for me it's a lot of fun just taking them out, pick a spot on a building and landing there. I just can't do the same with the AH-64, I feel it's so more sensitive to inputs to other helis and I'm really struggling getting used to. So I tried the Huey, the Gazelle and the Hind and I was just able to do everything I wanted to do with them; this brought a question to me: is the Apache really meant to be that difficult compared to others helis? Is it normal it doesn't have some sort of flight assistance like the Hind and Hipper? 

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If you mastered the other helicopters in DCS it won’t take you long to transition to the Apache.

The AH-64 is a quite heavy helicopter. Moments of inertia around the three axes are significant. It’s far beyond what I would call an agile helicopter.

The mistake I made at the beginning was to assume the Apache being an highly agile machine and was constantly overreacting on the controls whenever the helicopter made a movement around the the axes.

Finally I realised that the AH-64 is quite lethargic and does everything in slow motion (compared for example to the Huey or the Gazelle). So in hover I startet to react intentionally slowly and allowed the Apache to get into bigger movements I actually wanted to have. That taught me to adapt my inputs step by step to what is really needed (speed and amount of input on the controls). And the Apache really doesn’t need a lot of input.

Flying the Huey never gets boring because there is always something to do on the controls. The AH-64 might be the quintessence of a helicopter gunship. But when you finally got the hang of it this thing it feels tamely and the actual flying job is rather unexciting.

I finally came to the conclusion that the AH-64 is flight control wise the most good-natured helicopter in DCS. Only the UH-60L mod is even more placid on the controls.

Which is good at the end because you don’t want to spend your precious brain capacities for keeping the Apache under control in flight - you need most of your biological cpu power for managing your situational awareness, your sight and weapon systems.

By the way: Despite your assumption the Apache does have flight assistance in shape of it’s flight augmentation system. Switch it off and you will see and feel the difference.

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As with all helicopters, having an extension to your stick will help a lot. Also the mounting spot can make quite a bit of difference.
Other than that, it's just practice practice practice. You'll get used to it 😉 

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34 minuti fa, Rifter ha scritto:

 

The AH-64 is a quite heavy helicopter. Moments of inertia around the three axes are significant. It’s far beyond what I would call an agile helicopter.

The mistake I made at the beginning was to assume the Apache being an highly agile machine and was constantly overreacting on the controls whenever the helicopter made a movement around the the axes.

Finally I realised that the AH-64 is quite lethargic and does everything in slow motion (compared for example to the Huey or the Gazelle). So in hover I startet to react intentionally slowly and allowed the Apache to get into bigger movements I actually wanted to have. That taught me to adapt my inputs step by step to what is really needed (speed and amount of input on the controls). And the Apache really doesn’t need a lot of input.

 

This is an interesting point as I myself am making the same assumption: I thought the Apache was the most agile and powerful related to weight compared to mi8 and Hind and my confidence on this last 2 helis was because of their bigger inertia giving me more time to make inputs to correct some mistake before the previous input took effect. I'll try to think about your tip next time I'll fly it, thanks.

9 minuti fa, Raven (Elysian Angel) ha scritto:

As with all helicopters, having an extension to your stick will help a lot. Also the mounting spot can make quite a bit of difference. 

I noticed that and I find out the Apache is the only helicopter I set a curvature of 25 to give me a little more of accuracy while giving input

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18 hours ago, Rifter said:

If you mastered the other helicopters in DCS it won’t take you long to transition to the Apache.

The AH-64 is a quite heavy helicopter. Moments of inertia around the three axes are significant. It’s far beyond what I would call an agile helicopter.

The mistake I made at the beginning was to assume the Apache being an highly agile machine and was constantly overreacting on the controls whenever the helicopter made a movement around the the axes.

Finally I realised that the AH-64 is quite lethargic and does everything in slow motion (compared for example to the Huey or the Gazelle). So in hover I startet to react intentionally slowly and allowed the Apache to get into bigger movements I actually wanted to have. That taught me to adapt my inputs step by step to what is really needed (speed and amount of input on the controls). And the Apache really doesn’t need a lot of input.

Flying the Huey never gets boring because there is always something to do on the controls. The AH-64 might be the quintessence of a helicopter gunship. But when you finally got the hang of it this thing it feels tamely and the actual flying job is rather unexciting.

I finally came to the conclusion that the AH-64 is flight control wise the most good-natured helicopter in DCS. Only the UH-60L mod is even more placid on the controls.

Which is good at the end because you don’t want to spend your precious brain capacities for keeping the Apache under control in flight - you need most of your biological cpu power for managing your situational awareness, your sight and weapon systems.

By the way: Despite your assumption the Apache does have flight assistance in shape of it’s flight augmentation system. Switch it off and you will see and feel the difference.

The slow motion is also good visible through the SCAS indicator (green indicator) in the control input mask (Rctrl+Enter). When you trim while getting slower/faster you can see the work the bird is doing in the internals and give you a greater understanding of the limits.

Now I just let the bird catch up my controls and settle itself before throwing the stick in all directions to counter unwanted behaviour.

Also in normal forward flight the SCAS is strong enough to hold a straight line without much input, again let the bird settle.

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26 minuti fa, wasserschorle ha scritto:

The slow motion is also good visible through the SCAS indicator (green indicator) in the control input mask (Rctrl+Enter). When you trim while getting slower/faster you can see the work the bird is doing in the internals and give you a greater understanding of the limits.

Now I just let the bird catch up my controls and settle itself before throwing the stick in all directions to counter unwanted behaviour.

Also in normal forward flight the SCAS is strong enough to hold a straight line without much input, again let the bird settle.

True, the extra green (scas) indicator they added in the last update is very welcome to understand better what the heli is doing, I also noticed while in cruise it almost becomes an aircraft and it's very easy to fly.

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20 hours ago, Fukitsuna said:

I noticed that and I find out the Apache is the only helicopter I set a curvature of 25 to give me a little more of accuracy while giving input

I have also experimented with curves between 20-30. (I forget what I finally settled on, but it's at least 20.) 

Also, experiment with taking the saturation down a bit so that you have a more usable range of your stick for learning.  Then once you have the hang of it, you can slowly bring the saturation back up to give you maximum performance at the edge, and adapt to that over time.

I am using a center-mount stick with a 20cm extension, with 20+ curve on my axis, and I'm still only making tiny adjustments to try and hold a solid hover.

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6 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

I am using a center-mount stick with a 20cm extension, with 20+ curve on my axis, and I'm still only making tiny adjustments to try and hold a solid hover.

:shocking:

I also use a 20cm extension, and no curves at all: for me there's absolutely no need and I even consider them counter-productive...

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22 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

I have also experimented with curves between 20-30. (I forget what I finally settled on, but it's at least 20.) 

Also, experiment with taking the saturation down a bit so that you have a more usable range of your stick for learning.  Then once you have the hang of it, you can slowly bring the saturation back up to give you maximum performance at the edge, and adapt to that over time.

I am using a center-mount stick with a 20cm extension, with 20+ curve on my axis, and I'm still only making tiny adjustments to try and hold a solid hover.

I'm similar. For reference I'm using a 10cm extension, and have the saturation down at 80 in pitch and 70 in roll, with a curves of 10. Set like this my normal hover range of movement (according to the Virpil software) is about 3% of the stick travel, which physically equates to about 5mm total travel in any direction.

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To the OP, I likewise had the expectation that the Apache would be easy to hover coming from the Huey, and am currently being humbled by it. I've been sttuggling for an analogy to describe the differences, but to me the Apache feels more... slippery. If the Huey feels like trying to balance a broomstick on the end of your finger, the Apache to me feels like trying to stand at the top of an ice-covered mound. Everything is smoother; I try the old "put it in then take it out" trick on my cyclic inputs to avoid overcontrolling, and she just keeps gliding along away from center. This then baits you into more and bigger inputs, when in  reality I think the aircraft just hasn't quite responded yet to the initial input.

I applied curves at first, but I mostly took them out because it felt like my corrections were too small and ineffective with them. I'm beginning to think, however, that the curves are great for maintaining a hover, but maybe work against you when trying to restore a hover that you've already let go all goofy on you.  

Like the Huey though, I'm having those moments where suddenly the aircraft is dead rock steady in a hover, like magic. Unlike in the Huey, I'm not yet sure how I got it to do that. 🙂

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On 4/12/2022 at 11:59 AM, X-31_VECTOR said:

To the OP, I likewise had the expectation that the Apache would be easy to hover coming from the Huey, and am currently being humbled by it. I've been sttuggling for an analogy to describe the differences, but to me the Apache feels more... slippery. If the Huey feels like trying to balance a broomstick on the end of your finger, the Apache to me feels like trying to stand at the top of an ice-covered mound. Everything is smoother; I try the old "put it in then take it out" trick on my cyclic inputs to avoid overcontrolling, and she just keeps gliding along away from center. This then baits you into more and bigger inputs, when in  reality I think the aircraft just hasn't quite responded yet to the initial input.

I applied curves at first, but I mostly took them out because it felt like my corrections were too small and ineffective with them. I'm beginning to think, however, that the curves are great for maintaining a hover, but maybe work against you when trying to restore a hover that you've already let go all goofy on you.  

Like the Huey though, I'm having those moments where suddenly the aircraft is dead rock steady in a hover, like magic. Unlike in the Huey, I'm not yet sure how I got it to do that. 🙂

Well, have you tried what Rifter said on his post? I'm doing what he said and it has been working. It works fine for higher speed and for hover IF I don't have to input rudder. What I'm doing now is to command the chopper and what to see what it will do. THE SCAS system will kick in and stabilize the chopper. You don't need to be putting in and taking out as we do in the Huey. And if you do that, you have to make sure that the amount you take out is less than what you've put in, because the SCAS system will do most of the work for you. And you must wait for the chopper to stabilize on its own.

The only situation That I see myself reacting quickly on the controls is when using pedals for hover. But, again, make sure that the amount of pedal you take out is less than what you put in. Works like this: If I'm in a hover, and I want to turn right, I will slowly press pedal right. What I would normally expect to do then, is to take out the amount I've just put in, but that is not needed. What I need to do to stop the rotation is to then take out a smaller amount of left rudder, because the SCAS is already trying to stabilzia the helicopter and it will do at least half of the work for you. Try and use the CRTL+Enter controls indicator twice. On the up right corner a schematic will appear showing how the SCAS is working. Its initials are in Russian, but with time you get used to it. You'll see that sometimes you won't be inputting any anti-torque pedal and the "H" indicator (vertical line) will be to one side or another, indicating that the SCAS is working and compensating. Also, the green lines on the left control indicator show what the SCAS is doing.

All in all, I hope it helps you to tame this beast. We have to unlearn what we do in the Huey and learn how to work with the SCAS for our benefit.

And, maybe this helps as well:

 

 


Edited by RodBorza
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I have no issues with controlling all the other choppers in DCS, none at all with precise hovering and landing (extended stick, soft center, non-centering pedals with damper, etc).

I do have some with Apache and what I've found out is that FCS yaw channel is overcompensating. It can be clearly seen on the autopilot overlay. Even micro rudder movements in hover cause huge FCS reaction in opposite direction. This can be mitigated by keeping the trim button pressed (disabling AP for the time being, Ka-50 style), but then you loose pitch/roll stabilization.

What I've found out is that she is much easier to fly when you disable yaw and collective FCS channels. This gives warnings so I presume this is definitely not a normal mode of operation, but IMO there is something wrong otherwise, at least with the yaw channel. Unless there is something else I don't know about, or the way of flying with her requires something else. Anyway, meanwhile this is something that helped for me.

EDIT: and yes, I know the difference with what AP does when you press the trim momentarily and when you hold it (the latter returns the AP compensations to the center slowly in span of few seconds). What I might not know are the procedures related with that.


Edited by Havner
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39 minutes ago, Havner said:

I have no issues with controlling all the other choppers in DCS, none at all with precise hovering and landing (extended stick, soft center, non-centering pedals with damper, etc).

I do have some with Apache and what I've found out is that FCS yaw channel is overcompensating. It can be clearly seen on the autopilot overlay. Even micro rudder movements in hover cause huge FCS reaction in opposite direction. This can be mitigated by keeping the trim button pressed (disabling AP for the time being, Ka-50 style), but then you loose pitch/roll stabilization.

What I've found out is that she is much easier to fly when you disable yaw and collective FCS channels. This gives warnings so I presume this is definitely not a normal mode of operation, but IMO there is something wrong otherwise, at least with the yaw channel. Unless there is something else I don't know about, or the way of flying with her requires something else. Anyway, meanwhile this is something that helped for me.

EDIT: and yes, I know the difference with what AP does when you press the trim momentarily and when you hold it (the latter returns the AP compensations to the center slowly in span of few seconds). What I might not know are the procedures related with that.

 

Yea I am also pretty convinced something is wrong. I currently suspect something related to way the FCS interacts with the force trim / trimmed position of the helo. Yesterday I noticed that the Apache is a lot more well behaved when you NEVER touch the "force trim up" button at all. I could fly the Apache for over an hour without anything weird happening (basically until my arm got tired from constantly holding the cyclic in place). No weird behaviour for over an hour. Then, as soon as I start using the force trim, the SCAS starts to act weird and does things I don't understand until it gets stuck and needs to be desaturated. But it's really hard to describe for me, so I can't really create a good bug report for it. Anyway, I think the SCAS is still work in progress and they'll probably fix it at some stage.

(Disclaimer: yes I know how the trim modes work in DCS, I am familiar with all other DCS helos and never had similar problems in any of them)


Edited by cow_art
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Yea I am also pretty convinced something is wrong. I currently suspect something related to way the FCS interacts with the force trim / trimmed position of the helo. Yesterday I noticed that the Apache is a lot more well behaved when you NEVER touch the "force trim up" button at all. I could fly the Apache for over an hour without anything weird happening (basically until my arm got tired from constantly holding the cyclic in place). No weird behaviour for over an hour. Then, as soon as I start using the force trim, the SCAS starts to act weird and does things I don't understand until it gets stuck and needs to be desaturated. But it's really hard to describe for me, so I can't really create a good bug report for it. Anyway, I think the SCAS is still work in progress and they'll probably fix it at some stage.

(Disclaimer: yes I know how the trim modes work in DCS, I am familiar with all other DCS helos and never had similar problems in any of them)
Not even taping it? Because one thing I've learned the hard way is to NOT use the force trim as a real pilot would. It only works on the Ka-50. Press it, move where you want, and then release.
For all others, including the Uh-60 mod, if you press the trim, you loose control.
What I, and many others do, is to me the controls where I want, and then tap it? Then the control will move there and stay there.

And, yes, I also believe there is something strange with the FCS, mainly at low speed with the yaw channel. Too sensitive.

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1 hour ago, RodBorza said:

Not even taping it? Because one thing I've learned the hard way is to NOT use the force trim as a real pilot would. It only works on the Ka-50. Press it, move where you want, and then release.
For all others, including the Uh-60 mod, if you press the trim, you loose control.
What I, and many others do, is to me the controls where I want, and then tap it? Then the control will move there and stay there.

And, yes, I also believe there is something strange with the FCS, mainly at low speed with the yaw channel. Too sensitive.

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I don't think its just me misunderstanding how trim works in DCS helos. And I don't think it's just a sensitivity problem either.

I mostly tap the trim. I know holding the trim-up button pressed deactivates and re-centers the SCAS (not sure if completely deactivating the SCAS is correct in this case, but it's what currently happens). This makes things "wobbly"  but not terribly un-intuitive (if you are familiar with other DCS helos). Without SCAS, the Apache behaves very similar to the Hind with all AP channels disabled (a bit more twitchy, but similar). I am familiar with that and this effect is NOT what I am talking about.

What I am talking about is a bit hard to explain. To me it looks like the SCAS (green marker in controls indicator) is starting to gradually work against my virtual stick/rudder position (white marker) and towards the trimmed position (red marker). But that seems to happen only when force trim (tap) has been used and the trimmed position is far away from the center. Apologies for being unable to describe it better. I'm currently at work, but perhaps I can provide a better description or record a track tonight.


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7 hours ago, RodBorza said:

All in all, I hope it helps you to tame this beast. We have to unlearn what we do in the Huey and learn how to work with the SCAS for our benefit.

Thanks for your post -- very helpful. I hadn't really been paying attention to what the SCAS was doing in the mix. I had a very gratifying flying session last night with stable HOGE and HIGE, and I think what ultimately helped was to stop expecting it to be one way or another and just let my hands and feet figure out the right way to fly this aircraft, without my brain getting a vote. I'm sure I'll be terrible the next time I hop in the Huey. 

As an aside on taking out control inputs, I once got about 15 minutes at the controls of a blimp, and you had to take our your turn about 20 degrees short of your desired heading. I'm sure it looked from the ground like a drunk was flying. Apparently if it flies, I can find a way to over-control it. 

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5 hours ago, cow_art said:

I don't think its just me misunderstanding how trim works in DCS helos. And I don't think it's just a sensitivity problem either.

I mostly tap the trim. I know holding the trim-up button pressed deactivates and re-centers the SCAS (not sure if completely deactivating the SCAS is correct in this case, but it's what currently happens). This makes things "wobbly"  but not terribly un-intuitive (if you are familiar with other DCS helos). Without SCAS, the Apache behaves very similar to the Hind with all AP channels disabled (a bit more twitchy, but similar). I am familiar with that and this effect is NOT what I am talking about.

What I am talking about is a bit hard to explain. To me it looks like the SCAS (green marker in controls indicator) is starting to gradually work against my virtual stick/rudder position (white marker) and towards the trimmed position (red marker). But that seems to happen only when force trim (tap) has been used and the trimmed position is far away from the center. Apologies for being unable to describe it better. I'm currently at work, but perhaps I can provide a better description or record a track tonight.

 

I tried to explain what I mean in this report and attached a track.


I dont know, perhaps I am just doing / expecting something wrong? Would be greatful for feedback.

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13 hours ago, RodBorza said:

But, again, make sure that the amount of pedal you take out is less than what you put in. Works like this: If I'm in a hover, and I want to turn right, I will slowly press pedal right. What I would normally expect to do then, is to take out the amount I've just put in, but that is not needed. What I need to do to stop the rotation is to then take out a smaller amount of left rudder, because the SCAS is already trying to stabilzia the helicopter and it will do at least half of the work for you.

This actually helped a little. The yaw channel overcompensating was the sum of its work and me taking the rudder back (as we're used to from other helicopters). If you can restrain from doing that it behaves better. Not sure I like it, not sure it's supposed to be like that. I guess we'll have to wait and see what does change and what doesn't further down the Early Access line.

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9 hours ago, cow_art said:

What I am talking about is a bit hard to explain. To me it looks like the SCAS (green marker in controls indicator) is starting to gradually work against my virtual stick/rudder position (white marker) and towards the trimmed position (red marker). But that seems to happen only when force trim (tap) has been used and the trimmed position is far away from the center. Apologies for being unable to describe it better. I'm currently at work, but perhaps I can provide a better description or record a track tonight.

 

It is exactly what it is doing: working against you. The Stability systems function is to react against anything that makes the helo get out of its last state. It includes the pilot. AND, in DCS the system being what it is, yes, the system will fight you, because we move and tap the trim . It is a shame that once we press the trim, the SCAS channels say good bye and leave you with a less stable aircraft. I hope they solve this issue one day, on the KA-50 it works as intended.  


Edited by RodBorza

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We have definitely observed some odd behaviour with the SCAS, especially in the yaw and collective channels where it currently essentially magnifies every control input for a short period of time, so is basically working to reduce stability. I haven't yet bug reported it since I'm assuming improvements in the SCAS will be coming in early patches.  

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On 4/10/2022 at 2:01 PM, Rifter said:

If you mastered the other helicopters in DCS it won’t take you long to transition to the Apache.

The AH-64 is a quite heavy helicopter. Moments of inertia around the three axes are significant. It’s far beyond what I would call an agile helicopter.

The mistake I made at the beginning was to assume the Apache being an highly agile machine and was constantly overreacting on the controls whenever the helicopter made a movement around the the axes.

Finally I realised that the AH-64 is quite lethargic and does everything in slow motion (compared for example to the Huey or the Gazelle). So in hover I startet to react intentionally slowly and allowed the Apache to get into bigger movements I actually wanted to have. That taught me to adapt my inputs step by step to what is really needed (speed and amount of input on the controls). And the Apache really doesn’t need a lot of input.

Flying the Huey never gets boring because there is always something to do on the controls. The AH-64 might be the quintessence of a helicopter gunship. But when you finally got the hang of it this thing it feels tamely and the actual flying job is rather unexciting.

I finally came to the conclusion that the AH-64 is flight control wise the most good-natured helicopter in DCS. Only the UH-60L mod is even more placid on the controls.

Which is good at the end because you don’t want to spend your precious brain capacities for keeping the Apache under control in flight - you need most of your biological cpu power for managing your situational awareness, your sight and weapon systems.

By the way: Despite your assumption the Apache does have flight assistance in shape of it’s flight augmentation system. Switch it off and you will see and feel the difference.

 

Yup and then you realize the Brits  had the right idea deciding to stick in more powerful engines into their Apaches. 

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17 hours ago, Havner said:

I do have some with Apache and what I've found out is that FCS yaw channel is overcompensating. It can be clearly seen on the autopilot overlay.

This has been immediately apparent from my first moments in the Apache. Something is wrong here. Any attempt for me to quickly control the yaw with my feet results in occilations with the FCS fighting me back and forth.

 

 

I can fly all the other helos in DCS quite well, without the aid of VR, the Apache is the hardest, no question.

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8 hours ago, RodBorza said:

It is exactly what it is doing: working against you. The Stability systems function is to react against anything that makes the helo get out of its last state. It includes the pilot. AND, in DCS the system being what it is, yes, the system will fight you, because we move and tap the trim . It is a shame that once we press the trim, the SCAS channels say good bye and leave you with a less stable aircraft. I hope they solve this issue one day, on the KA-50 it works as intended.  

 

Yes, but I believe that this effect of the SCAS working against the pilot input becomes far more pronounced, when you trim the cyclic/rudder away from the initial (centered) position. That seems like a bug to me (or some gross misunderstanding on my part).

I again did a long flight yesterday without touching the trim at all (just holding stick/rudder in place). I encourage everyone who has helicopter experience but struggles with the Apache to try that: Take it for a flight and don't touch the force-trim up button! I am simply amazed at how easy, predictable and smooth everything feels. I find it extremely simple to handle, as long as I keep my fingers away from the trim button.

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Yes, but I believe that this effect of the SCAS working against the pilot input becomes far more pronounced, when you trim the cyclic/rudder away from the initial (centered) position.


Interesting point. I will test it out.

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Found this on another thread as I was having the very same issues - now I can control YAW much much easier. i.e. I do much less movement with the pedals now that I understand the logic of the stability system. Basically I was fighting the Automatic Heading Hold - without realising it was there. It is always on under the conditions below, and it is slow to compensate for drift, leading the user to use input, when they should leave the pedals alone.

"Heading hold won't engage unless the aircraft yaw is < 3 deg per second and less, < 0.1 inches from the trimmed position, and ground speed is <40 knots.  There is some other logic as well based on what, if any, attitude hold mode is engaged, but those are the big ones.  Heading hold is a heading hold, not a "stop turn" autopilot mode."

 

Nate

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