Improved Ground Unit AI

[directorguy7]

Debating dropping the cash for this. Some of the videos look super cool. 

While I know its still missing stuff, can anyone comment on:

1. Most importantly is how well does it fly. Any real world Apache pilots comment on if it feels like the real thing?

2. I know its missing some features, but from what I can see online and on the store page, its looks more finished than not. Probably for the time being, I would like to fly around and just shoot stuff without too much hyper advanced settings, but still want anything that is complete to be fully simmed out.

3. Coming from A-10C 1 and 2, with a full Thrustmaster A-10 joystick and throttle, is it pretty easy to crosswalk controlling a heli to the A-10 joy/throttle?

And just in general, is it worth the money for what you get? Again, seeing people flying the thing from videos I have seen, seems very much like the military intended it to be an extension of your body, and less like you are flying it (A-10) or it is flying you (F-16).  Is there any word of the devs improving ground AI and general "feel" of ground units to make it seem more real?

[nick10]

It will be complete for me as such when I crash land I can get out and start using that m4 on the jihadis coming for me.  
 

seriously - to me the big one is the radar. Will be a game changer. 

[Floyd1212]

As someone who came to DCS just to fly the Apache, I am most disappointed with the ground units.  I think there is a lot of work needed there to really be enjoyable and not feel like you are obviously playing a sim.  I can see these ground units up close and personal though the TADS; it's time to spend some resources in making them look and behave more realistically.

[directorguy7]

2 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

As someone who came to DCS just to fly the Apache, I am most disappointed with the ground units.  I think there is a lot of work needed there to really be enjoyable and not feel like you are obviously playing a sim.  I can see these ground units up close and personal though the TADS; it's time to spend some resources in making them look and behave more realistically.

I agree. It would be REALLY cool if they really leaned into it, watched some less known (not on youtube) real world videos of apaches attacking and enemies reaction - its such a deadly machine. Like I thought the AC-130 was so overbearing to the enemies, but this thing, holy cow. You can tell so much research, data, and analysis went into not making a weapon but making something that decimates any opposition or target at deep levels upon levels that are hard to comprehend.

Edited April 12, 2022 by directorguy7

[LooseSeal]

I agree with the above statement about ground units. I'm watching stuff like Growling Sidewinder's videos flying against human-operated ground units, and it seems a completely different experience. Sadly... I don't know anyone who does that stuff, so I'm stuck with what is rapidly becoming a very repetitive routine. The lack of a decent ground AI is much more noticeable with the Apache than with fixed-wing. When you're doing air-to-air stuff, there is at least the hint of dynamism - but on the ground... the units just sit there and let you pick them off. No defence, no tactics, no ideas. Please god let ED be actively working on this with the utmost priority.

For the questions:

2. I think it feels like the most finished any ED Early Access product has been, personally.

3. I use a Warthog setup (Virpil setup arriving tomorrow! Woo!) and have had no problems at all. Although I do also use an Xbox controller for the TEDAC controls.

[cow_art]

Related to OP's point  1.) How well does it fly?

This early access release is a bit puzzling to me. From a system modeling perspective the Apache feels pretty far along. But from a flight perspective it is somewhat of a mixed bag. The raw flight model might be pretty much finished. I can't really say as I am not a real pilot, but the raw Apache feels pretty much like other raw helicopters feel in DCS. (A bit more twitchy than I expected, but I can totally belief that's authentic).

What currently seems to be heavily WIP is the Stability and Control Augmentation System (SCAS). If nothing else, there are definitely some hold modes missing, which makes slow flight and hovering more challenging than it probably should be. I also have had situations where the SCAS did wonky things I can not explain (I know that SCAS saturation is modeled and that might certainly contribute to my confusion, but I doubt that this is responsible for ALL the weird behaviours I have seen so far). I personally expect there are still some bugs and inaccuracies in the SCAS implementation (But I think its generally accepted that this part is still WIP, so writing vague bug reports is probably a waste of time at this stage).

Bottom line: from a pure helicopter flight perspective my guess would be that its not finished or close to the "fully real" experience yet.

That said, in its current state the Apache is already pretty cool and I'd definitely buy it again. It just might be a good idea to adjust your expectations and don't expect a finished flight experience yet.

Edited April 12, 2022 by cow_art

[KungFu]

13 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

As someone who came to DCS just to fly the Apache, I am most disappointed with the ground units.  I think there is a lot of work needed there to really be enjoyable and not feel like you are obviously playing a sim.  I can see these ground units up close and personal though the TADS; it's time to spend some resources in making them look and behave more realistically.

The biggest thing to me is that when you are firing upon infantry with a 30mm, they just stand there firing their ak up at you.  Don't run, don't take cover.  Same with vehicles, they seem to just say, well damn, this looks like a good place to die right here.

[Eagle7907]

I’m more of a fixed wing guy, but ever since the Apache came, I’ve really enjoyed it in it’s current state. I don’t know much about helicopters, they are interesting to fly, and makes me wish I had the cash to drop for a rotor rating. As to the completeness, I think it’s okay to use and play around with. I think the only problem ED has now with this module and other heli-modules is that the combat scope gets smaller. So the need of detailed movement and behavior of infantry is very lacking and very telling of a simplified nature. Some things you see while driving an Apache, you don’t get to see while strafing in an F-16. Otherwise, I’m pretty happy with the Apache itself. I can’t wait for the first updates for it, and more goodies to play with.


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[davidrbarnette]

My main gripe with the infantry in particular is that you seem to have to hit them in the head with the 30mm or a rocket to kill them. The module itself is in a pretty decent state, the ground units that you interact with, not so much.

[Ironious]

There's plenty available in the current release to keep you busy learning for a while. For starters you should be able to hover in one spot well and be able to "slide" the aircraft in all directions while maintaining a desired heading. These are not easy. 

[M1Combat]

I recommend against hovering myself.  Highly over rated :).  Also I think learning to do it manually before auto hover is implemented is doubly wasted time.  Learning to setup a controlled/trimmed slide etc...  yeah for sure, but...  You're on a battlefield...  Don't sit still :).

 

Learn to accurately and quickly jump from cover to cover :).  Honestly...  I think it's best when flown like a VERY maneuverable Mi24...  Don't stop.  go fast.  Stay low.  Setup attack runs from behind terrain cover etc...  Most people decide that they should hover at like 1K' "or so" and slowly advance while searching for targets and killing them near max range with the hellfires.  That's "ok" but...  Watch Gato on Twitch for a much better method of deployment :).

[Ironious]

If you can't hover well you aren't going to be able to quickly acquire and maintain a battle position well enough to store some targets, move to shoot, and get back to cover. Brother flew the A model in the Army and that is what he has me working on. I'm not good at it yet. We set up some T90s a few miles north of Nellis and I attempted to get a bp in range behind some hills for cover. It wasn't pretty.

Oh yeah, everyone calls the wires. 

[M1Combat]

I suspect if your CPG can't acq and store targets on the move he needs more practice ;).

 

Seriously...  Watch how hell_gato does it on twitch.  He does it right

[Dav IRL]

4 hours ago, davidrbarnette said:

My main gripe with the infantry in particular is that you seem to have to hit them in the head with the 30mm or a rocket to kill them. The module itself is in a pretty decent state, the ground units that you interact with, not so much.

From footage I have watched when the apache fires its guns on a group of infantry; you can see debris and smoke everywhere and well everything is blown to pieces, we need more of this. 

[Lurker]

There should be a 14 day free trial available soon(tm). If you're on the fence (like me) you can wait for the trial period to try it out. 

[AngelAtTheTomb]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:00 PM, Dav IRL said:

From footage I have watched when the apache fires its guns on a group of infantry; you can see debris and smoke everywhere and well everything is blown to pieces, we need more of this. 

If what you're asking for is gore, that's never going to happen.

 

If what you're asking for is the ground units not to stand there like cardboard cutouts, I agree that it's essential if the sim wants to actually model helicopter air-to-ground combat.

[BaD CrC]

ED is aware of the infantry AI limitations and at least said they will look into this. The DCS helicopter community has to go through extraordinary level of scripting for years to improve a bit this critical part of the battlefield and helicopter operations. With the arrival of the 64, DCS RW is finally getting out of its ultra niche audience and becomes more audible with the increased population of pilots.

To answer some other questions, no amount of fixed wing experience will really help you in any way to fly a RW in a realistic battlefield environment in DCS.

[3WA]

On 4/12/2022 at 4:39 AM, LooseSeal said:

the units just sit there and let you pick them off. No defence, no tactics, no ideas. Please god let ED be actively working on this with the utmost priority.

Exactly how I feel.  Tanks seem to just be turrets stuck in the ground.  I pick them off at range.  Boring.  They just sit there when they can see the missiles coming at them.

On 7/14/2022 at 1:49 PM, AngelAtTheTomb said:

If what you're asking for is gore, that's never going to happen.

Aww.  I want to see someones hand fly up and smack my cockpit window.  Give me a chance to use the wipers.