F-16C and GBU-10 Laser Guided Bomb release methods

[Top Jockey]

Hello everyone,

 

I would appreciate all of you people insight, as after experimenting using GBUs in the DCS Viper and in the DCS Hornet (with FLIR from Litening TGP for both), I find the Viper's functions somewhat more restricted and less functional.

 

My experience above is based on:

- in the Hornet it is VERY easy to slew and point the TGP cursor; either in Velocity Vector, or in Snow Plow mode - the cursor does move everytime it's needed;

- in the Viper it's basically a mess... I'm yet to understand which modes ( CCIP, CCRP, DTOS, LADO, etc.) do allow for free sleewing / pointing the TGP cursor... cursor zero isn't working in an easily understandable fashion also.

 

What I usually do in the Hornet is:

- attack the "Rezkiy" Frigate with GBU-10s, comming from 25.000 ft;

- waypoint designate it;

- select Manual mode instead of CCRP;

- slightly drop my nose when in 13 nm from the target and release my GBUs... and keep flying level at height.

... in the Viper I can't do that while maintaining a level course... because the release / steering line would make me drop the GBUs almost directly above the ship (unless I do a tipical dive attack)... causing the GBUs to do a very steep trajectory and missing the target.

 

So I do have 2 questions:

- is the DCS F-16C's GBU-10 / Litening TGP implementation concluded (finished) already, or is it still WIP ?

- is it possible at all in the Viper, to release the GBU-10 without: a waypoint desgnation, and a release / steering line and the respective CCRP method ?

 

Thank you

[Frederf]

Paveway II against a naval target could be conducted via either preplanned or visual modes. Everything air-to-ground in the F-16 falls either under the umbrella of preplanned or visual. From your description it sounds like you want something more akin to a preplanned delivery so we'll start with that first.

Preplanned is always in reference to a steerpoint of some kind. In standard employment that would be a permanent destination that is at the rough location of the target with refinement slews via the HUD, radar, or TGP for final targeting. For self-lase LGB delivery the last sensor select would usually be TGP as the pilot would like to have control over the laser spot until impact. CCRP (or LADD which is a slightly modified CCRP) are the typical preplanned modes.

Here is a track where the steerpoint 2nm away from the naval target, radar is used to bring the TGP closer, and then TGP used to attack. Release is level at 20,000'.F-16 Frigate LGB 1.trk

But you might not have a steerpoint nearby. Thankfully there is another option: a pseudosteerpoint. This is placed in snowplow mode and acts as a temporary steerpoint. The system is placed in SP and the pre-designate point is half the radar range. Turn the airplane until the target is visible, adjust the radar scale until target is roughly in the middle and designate. Then refine and the attack proceeds as before.

F-16 Frigate LGB 2.trk

If you wanted to attack visually you could use DTOS. The DTOS TD box, post-designate is similar enough to the pseudosteerpoint of CCRP/SP above. Putting the TD box and then using TGP to refine and attack is valid. For some reason I can't see the ship far away so I used the radar to find it, back to visual, designated where the box was, and then finally saw it through TGP. If you can see the ship then putting DTOS box on target visually would be enough. On your computer you may see ship from many miles away and wondering why I'm struggling.

F-16 Frigate LGB 3.trk

Lastly, CCIP. This is not normally used with self-lase LGB delivery but let's see if it can be made to work. OK, it's very silly but you can is you designate visually with the pipper and then while holding WR to keep the TGP on target you lase. This only works with the delay cue release. I have asked around about TGP divorcing from pipper in CCIP pre-designate and I don't have a clear conclusion. You can't do it in DCS at least. I don't see the value in doing it anyway. DTOS would be the desired mode for a visual attack.

F-16 Frigate LGB 4.trk

 

There are lots of issues visible in these tracks if you know where to look but the TGP/LGB integration itself is pretty spot on. Those issues significant to these attacks are with the radar, HUD mostly. There is a significant issue that you should be aware of when moving the TGP with the radar. When you slew radar cursors in a preplanned mode the TGP should follow... it doesn't. What works to "kick" the TGP to the radar cursor is to cycle the sighting point. You can do this hands-on with FCR SOI and TMS right. This is an unfortunate issue and hopefully will be fixed soon.

[Top Jockey]

Hello @Frederf,

Thank you for all the thorough insight, I don't even know where to begin.

 

I've only very recently started that type of attack (GBUs against naval vessels) in the Viper; whereas in the Hornet I've been doing it long ago.

Also chose the waypoint designation on pre-planed waypoint on stationary naval vessels, as visualy spoting a single ship with the TGP from heights of > 20.000 ft can be difficult.

 

However, after sinking the Frigate, sometimes I proceed to bomb some enemy ground instalations and buildings, and here the simplicity and ease of function of the Hornet come very handy:

- without a steerpoint (waypoint) on these targets, Velocity Vector and Snow Plow modes work flawlessly;

- one button to lock (stabilize) the TGP, and another to un-lock; no confusion with the same multi-function switch - (SCS in Hornet, or TMS in Viper).

 

Besides the difficulty of getting the several functions to work in the Viper, the biggest one is:

- I doesn't release the GBU without some given pre-requisites are satisfied, contrary to the Hornet.

 

I'll see your tracks and try my luck to get to good use the DTOS mode...

Thank you!

[Top Jockey]

By the way:

- is the DCS F-16C's GBU-10 / Litening TGP implementation concluded (finished) already, or is it still WIP ?

- is the GBU-10 release on the Viper always dependent on a release / steering line and count down timer ?

[Ignition]

Its also very easy in the F16, CCRP and DTOS.

You can use the jhmcs or HUD to designate with DTOS. It's the most flexible mode.

In the F16 you first need to think how you're going to attack and then where. That's the only (big) issue.

[Dragon1-1]

15 hours ago, Frederf said:

I have asked around about TGP divorcing from pipper in CCIP pre-designate and I don't have a clear conclusion. You can't do it in DCS at least. I don't see the value in doing it anyway. DTOS would be the desired mode for a visual attack.

AFAIK, it's not possible in the real Viper, either. When in CCIP, your "SPI" is effectively the pipper, so that the radar provides ranging and the TGP provides VID. As such, LGBs can only be dropped in ballistic mode with CCIP. I ran into this limitation in the other sim while trying to strafe a truck I couldn't see otherwise (this being pancake, it was much harder to see it than it would in DCS). Ended up rolling in on the TGP symbol and switching to guns when running in (and I don't think I actually hit the blasted thing).

[Top Jockey]

Hello again everyone, thank you for your time and answers.

Not exactly a stranger to other very famous Viper sims in the past (mostly in Air to Air combat), I've yet a lot to study more thoroughly in the Viper regarding Air to Ground systems.

 

Functions like: Cursor zero, snow plow, etc. seem to not obey / always work when requested... whereas in the Hornet they always respond when their letters are available in the MFD's OSB buttons - that's why I ask if it's still work in progress in the DCS F-16.

 

Don't know why my previous post appeared in dark background, but my main doubts for the viper are:

- is the DCS F-16C's GBU-10 / Litening TGP implementation concluded (finished) already, or is it still WIP ?

- is the GBU-10 release on the Viper always dependent on a release / steering line and count down timer; or is it also able to release the GBU almost "at will" like in the Hornet ?

... because in the Hornet I can release a GBU-10 from 13 nm, at 25.000 ft, level flight, and hit the naval vessel, whitout the release / steering line profile.

... in the Viper, one is obliged to wait for the release cue - very close to the target; or the bomb isn't released.

 

[razo+r]

Well, if you want you can switch from CCRP to CCIP or MAN at anytime, so you are not obligated to wait for the CCRP to tell you when the drop happens. 

[Top Jockey]

9 minutes ago, razo+r said:

Well, if you want you can switch from CCRP to CCIP or MAN at anytime, so you are not obligated to wait for the CCRP to tell you when the drop happens. 

 

Very good - that's precisely what I wish to do, but in that case why aren't the bombs dropping when I press the release button ?

[razo+r]

59 minutes ago, Top Jockey said:

 

Very good - that's precisely what I wish to do, but in that case why aren't the bombs dropping when I press the release button ?

If you are in CCRP, you have to wait for the drop to happen.

If you are in CCIP with the delay cue, it will switch to CCRP when pressing the release button and you have to wait for the drop. If you do not have the delay cue, it will instantly drop upon pressing the button.

MAN is as far as I know still WIP.

I've also just tried to do a CCRP on a ship from FL250. No issues with hitting it.

Edited April 13, 2022 by razo+r

[Ignition]

13nm for a GBU-10 doesn't sound right to me, maybe in DCS. A Paveway III maybe.

[Top Jockey]

1 hour ago, razo+r said:

If you are in CCRP, you have to wait for the drop to happen.

If you are in CCIP with the delay cue, it will switch to CCRP when pressing the release button and you have to wait for the drop. If you do not have the delay cue, it will instantly drop upon pressing the button.

MAN is as far as I know still WIP.

I've also just tried to do a CCRP on a ship from FL250. No issues with hitting it.

 

 

... that bold does explain some stuff.

Sure, what I'm insterested in, is in an alternate method to not be dependent of the delay cue.

 

Ok then, exactly how can I chose and employ a completely bomb "drop at will" release, without any restrictions ?

Is it MANUAL or DTOS ?

[Top Jockey]

9 minutes ago, Ignition said:

13nm for a GBU-10 doesn't sound right to me, maybe in DCS. A Paveway III maybe.

 

In the DCS Hornet, it is easily attainable for the GBU-10 in the following conditions:

- level flight at 25.000 ft or higher;

- speed roughly Mach 0.9 or above when release time;

- target (naval vessel) stationary - 0 kts speed.

 

Certainly the aircraft must be near those airspeeds, otherwise the bombs will not have the kinetic energy to travel those distances.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Top Jockey

[Deano87]

1 hour ago, Top Jockey said:

 

In the DCS Hornet, it is easily attainable for the GBU-10 in the following conditions:

- level flight at 25.000 ft or higher;

- speed roughly Mach 0.9 or above when release time;

- target (naval vessel) stationary - 0 kts speed.

 

Certainly the aircraft must be near those airspeeds, otherwise the bombs will not have the kinetic energy to travel those distances.

 

In the Hornet are you lasing as soon as you release so the bomb glides rather then flying purely ballistically? Generally for early paveways you only lase for the last 10-15 seconds and the rest of the bombs flight is done ballistically.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Deano87

[Top Jockey]

31 minutes ago, Deano87 said:

In the Hornet are you lasing as soon as you release so the bomb glides rather then flying purely ballistically? Generally for early paveways you only lase for the last 10-15 seconds and the rest of the bombs flight is done ballistically.

 

Yes I am.

I do keep the laser trigger pressed the entire flight path, otherwise the GBUs may start an early pitch down moment, which would cause to decrease their reach.

 

[razo+r]

2 hours ago, Top Jockey said:

Ok then, exactly how can I chose and employ a completely bomb "drop at will" release, without any restrictions ?

Is it MANUAL or DTOS ?

CCIP in a dive or MAN when it's implemented.

[Top Jockey]

10 minutes ago, razo+r said:

CCIP in a dive or MAN when it's implemented.

 

Thank you.

Ok, I'll try it later and see how it goes, it would be awsome if it does indeed allow for "free" bomb release.

[Frederf]

MAN is a backup mode with manual release. If no delay cue in CCIP (pipper in HUD) that's immediate too. I think you are focusing too much on immediate release. If your target location is good then consent to release driving through solution is a good answer. You don't even have to be that accurate with delivery. From high and fast chucking the bomb anywhere within a quarter mile is good enough. It will follow the laser spot.

No way were you getting different range from the same bomb in different planes with same parameters. After all you're just throwing a brick out of a moving car. Ford or Chevy is effectively irrelevant.

[Deano87]

41 minutes ago, Top Jockey said:

Yes I am.

I do keep the laser trigger pressed the entire flight path, otherwise the GBUs may start an early pitch down moment, which would cause to decrease their reach.

 

That is not the correct way of employing the GBU-10, which is why your experience with the F-16 differs as the CCRP mode in the F-16 releases the bomb for the correct ballistic trajectory, only requiring lasing in the last few seconds. Later model GBUs and indeed JDAMs have improved guidance which allows a much more efficient flight profile and that results in a longer range. But the GBU-10 isn't meant to be employed this way, if you're trying to be realistic. 

[Top Jockey]

12 minutes ago, Frederf said:

MAN is a backup mode with manual release. If no delay cue in CCIP (pipper in HUD) that's immediate too. I think you are focusing too much on immediate release. If your target location is good then consent to release driving through solution is a good answer. You don't even have to be that accurate with delivery. From high and fast chucking the bomb anywhere within a quarter mile is good enough. It will follow the laser spot.

No way were you getting different range from the same bomb in different planes with same parameters. After all you're just throwing a brick out of a moving car. Ford or Chevy is effectively irrelevant.

 

Yes, sure enough I don't question that.

The thing with what the 'immediate release' allows for, is just a personal preference of mine - I like the kind of 'standoff profile' of releasing the GBUs on a naval vessel, from 25.000 ft at 13 ~ 14 nm distance.

... without an 'immediate release' possibility (i.e. count down timer; release / delay cue) one is obligated to get closer to the target ... which isn't my prefered attack profile.

 

I've been doing it for a long time in the Hornet, and now I've passed to the Viper as I also enjoy studying it.

The thing is: in the Viper some TGP / FLIR modes / functions do appear to be more cumbersome, confusing or still WIP.

 

Didn't understood the part about 'chucking the bomb anywhere within a quarter mile" - isn't this extremely close to the target ?

5 minutes ago, Deano87 said:

That is not the correct way of employing the GBU-10, which is why your experience with the F-16 differs as the CCRP mode in the F-16 releases the bomb for the correct ballistic trajectory, only requiring lasing in the last few seconds. Later model GBUs and indeed JDAMs have improved guidance which allows a much more efficient flight profile and that results in a longer range. But the GBU-10 isn't meant to be employed this way, if you're trying to be realistic. 

 

Same as above.

Regarding the bold, yes I understand it - hence the necessity of a diving profile prior releasing the GBU, then one can see the count down timer counting faster, than in a level flight.

 

But my 'preference' (not realistic I know), is to deploy the GBU and stay high looking at the situation ... this calls for a more free bomb release possibility - which CCRP doesn't allow from very high and at distances of 13 nm.

[Frederf]

You can continuous lase a PWII from that speed/height. It's not the best for terminal velocity and crossrange ability but it's not the end of the world. You will hit a stationary target 10/10 times. There is such a thing as a "deliver to miss long" feature in some airplanes with PWII types which will lead to improved terminal energy. By delivering long by a certain amount it expects the PWII to steer steeper as it sees the laser spot. Different airplanes may or may not do this type of delivery. The A-10C for example this feature can be altered with the ORP/BAL setting (although I don't know if it actually does anything in DCS).

You could test this in the A-10/F-16/F-18/etc by delivering a PWII without laser and seeing where it hits.

[Deano87]

@FrederfI don't think you're getting what TJ is saying he's doing. He's releasing way before the CCRP release solution and "gliding" the GBU in from much farther away then would be for a ballistic release.

 

@Top Jockey Out of interest what angle is the GBU compared to the horizon when it eventually hits the ship?

Imho the Viper TGP integration is very slick and not at all cumbersome. But then I use it as its intended

Edited April 13, 2022 by Deano87

[Top Jockey]

Just now, Deano87 said:

@FrederfI don't think you're getting what TJ is saying he's doing. He's releasing way before the CCRP release solution and "gliding" the GBU in from much farther then would be for a ballistic release.

 

@Top Jockey Out of interest what angle is the GBU compared to the horizon when it eventually hits the ship?

Imho the Viper TGP integration is very slick and not at all cumbersome. But then I use it as its intended

 

I believe it's roughly 14º or so, with an >400 kts 'true speed', if I recal correctly from yesterday.

But I have to get on my PC to confirm it.

 

And yes it's correct - from my prefered attack profile from distance and high altitude, I'm not using CCRP as I'm releasing the GBUs way before an CCRP release cue.

(I do it in the Hornet, as in the Viper I've not yet managed to accomplish it so far - I'll try it in a few hours.)

[Deano87]

1 minute ago, Top Jockey said:

I believe it's roughly 14º or so, with an >400 kts 'true speed'

14 degrees nose down compared the horizon correct?

[Frederf]

Ah, yeah a manual long release is something else. I'm a little surprised a PWII will stretch that long under guidance; it might not be realistic. The fins bouncing back and forth at 2Hz drain a lot of energy from the bomb. EDIT: Makes sense he has to get the laser seeker pointed at the laser spot (14 pitch down should be plenty) in order for the guidance to start early. With level releases it doesn't matter if the laser is on early because the bomb is not pointed at the spot enough to see it yet.

If you wanted to do that in F-16 I would put PROF1 on CCRP and PROF2 on MAN and toggle from 1 seeing when I should release and actually having release control on 2. That was to do the famous 2 LGBs 3 seconds apart and shift laser between impacts trick. If he wants extra standoff then a medium altitude toss (MAT) delivery is good. Unfortunately the toss cueing and range scale symbology on the CCRP HUD is currently out to lunch. The CCRP math will still do toss/loft releases but the supporting guidance is not in yet.

20 minutes ago, Top Jockey said:

Didn't understood the part about 'chucking the bomb anywhere within a quarter mile" - isn't this extremely close to the target ?

I mean your "throw" of the bomb can be wrong by 1500' (or more) and laser will pull it onto target. If you did not lase then the bomb will hit the ground that far from the target.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Frederf