need track replay SA-13 shot me down with 7.62 mm?

[Mr_Blastman]

So I managed to sneak in beneath radar to mop up a SA-13 at close range with my cannon.  Easy, right?

Nope.

Hatched popped open as I took aim, gunner came out and wasted me with his 7.62 machine gun.  What?  Apache is armored to withstand up to 23mm but his first few shots were golden BBs and wasted both my engines.

 

Armor not modeled properly yet?  I don't think such a feat should be easy at all...

 

[BIGNEWY]

We will need to see a track replay but I am not seeing any issue here, 7.62mm will do damage to the AH-64D its not immune from taking damage from smaller caliber weapons

If you get the chance watch apache warrior about Iraq in March, 2003, they had plenty of dings from small arms fire

[Rick50]

21 hours ago, Mr_Blastman said:

What?  Apache is armored to withstand up to 23mm but his first few shots were golden BBs and wasted both my engines.

 

Um, no. The Apache is NOT able to withstand 23mm hits anywhere on the helo. There are a couple of critical items that are supposed to take a 23mm hit, but just a couple. 

Yes there is a bit of armor. But it's not a flying tank, at least in terms of armor. 

Bignewy mentioned the documentary "Apache Warrior", you should watch it. One crewmember got hit by smallarms fire (AKM ?) and bled out before they could save him. Many others were also bleeding but survived to tell the tale. Every Apache on that flight was significantly damaged and had to undergo significant repairs before the unit was available again... from ONE SORTIE. 

Armor in helos does not make them invulnerable, it just gives the crew a CHANCE to get away to safety.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Rick50

[Mr_Blastman]

So the engines are not armored whatsoever?  I feel there should be some degree of inaccuracy to the complementary weapons on vehicles, especially versus a flying target.

 

I never expected the bird to be a tank, and even 23mm in anything beyond a stray round here or there could plausibly take an Apache down with ease up close.  7.62 is AK-47 level firepower, on the other hand.

 

Whatever I think, though, real military data should be the deciding factor here.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Mr_Blastman

[Jester2138]

On 4/14/2022 at 1:50 AM, BIGNEWY said:

We will need to see a track replay but I am not seeing any issue here, 7.62mm will do damage to the AH-64D its not immune from taking damage from smaller caliber weapons

If you get the chance watch apache warrior about Iraq in March, 2003, they had plenty of dings from small arms fire

If you're talking about Karbala, a couple dozen Apaches overflew an entire Iraqi division in a deliberately planned ambush due to faulty intel and sustained hits from PKM, NSV, 23mm, and 57mm fire.

Only one was forced down (intact) and the crew was captured. Nobody was killed by enemy fire, though one CPG had to be evacuated to Germany.

That sort of event would be impossible in DCS right now IMO as even the PKM fire would rapidly kill many crew members with no trouble before we even start talking about the 23mm and 57mm.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Jester2138

[BIGNEWY]

If you have track replays I am happy to take a look. But my quote still stands, the AH-64D is not immune to small caliber fire. 

[Rick50]

 

Oh wow... I thought the crewman who took a round to the neck had died, but rather got medevaced and RTU'ed within weeks! Well good for him!

Still, regardless, the whole event shows that the Apache, as good as it definitely is, is not Superman bulletproof, it IS vulnerable, just LESS vulnerable than most other helicopters. 

One point of order however: "7.62" can mean different power levels. Normally not a concern for fast movers, but for slow and low helos, it might make a difference, if we consider the difference in ballistics between the bog-standard AKM "Russian short", compared to say the PKM  "Russian long" (also seen in PK's, Dragunov SVD's and so on). The bullets are heavier and driven faster, giving a heavier punch.

Now... my gut feeling is that a single turret PK knocking out both your engines in a single burst seems... unlikely, in the grand scheme of things. But I'm very much not aware of what protections there might be for the two turbines there. And if you were heading straight towards it, appearing as a nearly stationary target... a gunner with a lucky burst might get lucky. So unlikely but plausibly possible in rare instances, possibly this  one.

Is there another AH that is known to have thicker/stronger armor, or better armor coverage, than the Apache?  I'm kinda not sure if the Hind approaches the Apache in some respects, or maybe even surpasses in one way? 

21 hours ago, Mr_Blastman said:

So the engines are not armored whatsoever? 

Whatever I think, though, real military data should be the deciding factor here.

Honestly I don't know about engine armor on Apache. And agreed on the second point.

[Dragon1-1]

The Hind is better armored than the Apache, but it's not a tank, either, despite its reputation. If you were hovering near a PKM gunner you got what was coming to you, losing both engines from being hosed down in the front quarter is a rather likely scenario (especially since IRL, he'd aim at the engines given the chance). Apaches had taken nasty hits from AKs and PKMs IRL, and these guys usually only hovered outside small arms range. As such, they typically wouldn't eat the whole burst, hitting a moving, flying target is hard, as anyone who ever went skeet shooting will attest to. That Russian gunner probably won't pay one kopeck for vodka for the rest of his life.  

[Rick50]

I seem to recall the HIND has a titanium bathtub, a bit similar to the A-10 Warthog... not sure about turbine/gearbox protection, but there does seem to be a similar philosophy between the Hog, Hind and Apache: give a bit of protection to the squishy humans, beef up critical items that would crash the thing  if it got hit by a golden BB, and maybe give some redundancy for critical systems. It's a logical plan based on careful observation of the results of past wars.

 

[Hammer1-1]

On 4/13/2022 at 9:50 PM, Mr_Blastman said:

So I managed to sneak in beneath radar to mop up a SA-13 at close range with my cannon.  Easy, right?

Nope.

Hatched popped open as I took aim, gunner came out and wasted me with his 7.62 machine gun.  What?  Apache is armored to withstand up to 23mm but his first few shots were golden BBs and wasted both my engines.

 

Armor not modeled properly yet?  I don't think such a feat should be easy at all...

 

Ive been having issues where random bullets would destroy my aircraft. Its not just you either. 7.62 shouldnt be able to buzz a wing off.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[BIGNEWY]

attach a track replay so we can take a look

[pii]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:50 PM, Mr_Blastman said:

So I managed to sneak in beneath radar to mop up a SA-13 at close range with my cannon.  Easy, right?

Nope.

Hatched popped open as I took aim, gunner came out and wasted me with his 7.62 machine gun.  What?  Apache is armored to withstand up to 23mm but his first few shots were golden BBs and wasted both my engines.

 

Armor not modeled properly yet?  I don't think such a feat should be easy at all...

 

That windshield isn't mush use against  Bullets, apparently of any caliber  I think its cool someone popped out of the hatch and shot though

Edited April 24, 2022 by pii

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, pii said:

That windshield isn't mush use against  Bullets, apparently of any caliber  I think its cool someone popped out of the hatch and shot though

 

there are armored components inside the cabin specifically for this. Both sides of the seats have armor plating as well as above the combing separating the CPG and pilot station. AFAIK, its AR500 rated steel plating; the window screen separating the CPG and pilot station is also armored IIRC...but you're right as the windows arent armored except for the forward most windscreen.

[pii]

Just now, Hammer1-1 said:

there are armored components inside the cabin specifically for this. Both sides of the seats have armor plating as well as above the combing separating the CPG and pilot station. AFAIK, its AR500 rated steel plating; the window screen separating the CPG and pilot station is also armored IIRC...but you're right as the windows arent armored except for the forward most windscreen.

ahhh I was just joking but I do think it was cool someone came out of the hatch and engaged you. Maybe they should arm him with a rocket launcher though.

[Mr_Blastman]

I think they were golden BBs.  I flew a mission last week where I was flying over 3 or 4 BRDMs/BMPs for 30 - 60 seconds and a curtain of lead was bathing us the whole time and she kept running!  Eventually they managed to saw through one of my rotor blades and I had to set her down.

The crews of the vehicles were NOT happy upon my arrival.

 

Yes, I realize Apache protocol is to stay away from the action, but truth be told I was rather pissed at George missing his hellfire shots so I asked the guy, "Look, is it your lens prescription?  If so, we can fix that..."

Of course, he remained mute, so I figured if that's how he's gonna be, all grumpy and mad that I questioned his gunnery skills, then why not get closer, a LOT closer to help him aim better with the thirty mike mike.

 

The test was successful.  Apache bullet sponge confirmed.  Mostly.  I think being above them helped shield the engines better.  The downside was returning fire was very hard.  Where's some duct tape so we can strap on some KA-50 style bombs?   

 

I wish I had a track of this.  I haven't been saving them due to my feeble 16 gigs of ram.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Mr_Blastman

[Hammer1-1]

Oh, Curious George has cost me a few moments of relative calm by forcing me to rage quit a few times. Really hope ED places an ejection seat for him straight into the main rotor when he starts his bonehead sht again.

[Rick50]

Incurious George??

[Hammer1-1]

6 hours ago, Rick50 said:

Incurious George??

No, curious. I honestly think hes interested in finding new ways to piss me off.

[Rick50]

 

LOL!!!!  

[TylerPL666]

I will add that after many hours spend in AH-64 in DCS I can tell with 100% sure that in many situations damaged heli isnt equal dead helicopter. At least two timest I was able to fly back to FARP about 10-15miles only with one engine working. With corect adjusting power and carefull trimming to avoid fast turns. I found it as good lesson for managing power during regular missons. 

[Dozer1606688093]

On 4/14/2022 at 10:50 AM, BIGNEWY said:

We will need to see a track replay but I am not seeing any issue here, 7.62mm will do damage to the AH-64D its not immune from taking damage from smaller caliber weapons

If you get the chance watch apache warrior about Iraq in March, 2003, they had plenty of dings from small arms fire

Yea those guys got hammered. Everyone got back safe though, except for one gunner.

The Apache should have bulletproof glass all around.