Taking on the SA-15 in the Hog

[Shein]

I made a video on how to handle the SA-15 in the A-10. 
You may remember me from my 2019 smash hit "Not Another CDU Tutorial" 

give it a watch, if you would. or don't. Thanks. 

 

 

[King39]

So, > 18,000 msl and/or < 1.3 miles.

Good vid.

Thanks.

[Hobel]

Try to align the Maverick with Boat switch center on the targets.

This will give you a maximum range of 20-23nm.

[King39]

What do mean "boat switch center"? Is that using AGM-65Ds? They are only good at. 10 miles. No?

[Hobel]

 It's the H that does this, and it's called Force Correlate, so you can just destroy SA-11 without the risk of getting within its range.

So the only limitation is battery life and ballistic range.

 

Use the TGP to find the target you want, and aim the attack point right under the unit you want to destroy.

Once you have your Maverick pointed at the target using the TGP, press "boat switch center", wait about 1 second, then press TMS UP and then fire.

 

You "Lock" the ground with the Maverick. Of course, this only works with static targets.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Hobel

[ASAP]

Alternatively, if max alt is 18K just fly over it and drop a bomb on it. 

[Shein]

3 hours ago, Hobel said:

 It's the H that does this, and it's called Force Correlate, so you can just destroy SA-11 without the risk of getting within its range.

So the only limitation is battery life and ballistic range.

 

Use the TGP to find the target you want, and aim the attack point right under the unit you want to destroy.

Once you have your Maverick pointed at the target using the TGP, press "boat switch center", wait about 1 second, then press TMS UP and then fire.

 

You "Lock" the ground with the Maverick. Of course, this only works with static targets.

 

 

 

Except it shoots down mavericks 

1 hour ago, ASAP said:

Alternatively, if max alt is 18K just fly over it and drop a bomb on it. 

Yeah I mention that in the video but it’s boring so I don’t record that lol

[ASAP]

Ha! Fair enough

[jaylw314]

5 hours ago, Hobel said:

 It's the H that does this, and it's called Force Correlate, so you can just destroy SA-11 without the risk of getting within its range.

So the only limitation is battery life and ballistic range.

 

Use the TGP to find the target you want, and aim the attack point right under the unit you want to destroy.

Once you have your Maverick pointed at the target using the TGP, press "boat switch center", wait about 1 second, then press TMS UP and then fire.

 

You "Lock" the ground with the Maverick. Of course, this only works with static targets.

OP was talking about the SA-15, not the SA-11.  The SA-11 is a turkey shoot.

[Yurgon]

11 hours ago, Hobel said:

Try to align the Maverick with Boat switch center on the targets.

This will give you a maximum range of 20-23nm.

To the best of my knowledge, that's exploiting a game mechanic and is absolutely not representative of the performance or the capabilities of the actual Maverick H or K variants.

On the other hand, when people use the A-10 as a DEAD asset, I guess realism isn't the primary concern.

[Hobel]

9 hours ago, Yurgon said:

To the best of my knowledge, that's exploiting a game mechanic and is absolutely not representative of the performance or the capabilities of the actual Maverick H or K variants.

On the other hand, when people use the A-10 as a DEAD asset, I guess realism isn't the primary concern.

Yeah okay, is there already a bug report?

 

 

And on the subject of realism.

It was recently even shown that partly unguided rockets are used for DEAD.

If the situation allows it, almost anything is possible in war - this has been proven time and again.

Whether that's effective is another story, but if it works, go for it  .

Edited April 16, 2022 by Hobel

[Yurgon]

4 hours ago, Hobel said:

Yeah okay, is there already a bug report?

For many years, people here on the forum have pointed out that Force Correlate isn't used as a long range sniper IRL, and is instead used to launch at sufficiently large, low-contrast targets where pinpoint accuracy isn't the primary concern.

Just a few weeks back some user said it doesn't work anymore in DCS and considered Force Correlate broken.

Just pointing out that the sniper-way that has been advocated by people on this forum and on Youtube is a game mechanic, and can be changed to become more realistic at any point in time. It's the fine-print that should always be attached, so that new users know what they're dealing with.

4 hours ago, Hobel said:

Whether that's effective is another story, but if it works, go for it  .

I'm all for that.

But I also advocate knowing the systems and their limitations as well as knowing the difference between DCS and real life, at least when we talk about known larger differences like the one regarding Force Correlate.

[Hobel]

4 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

But I also advocate knowing the systems and their limitations as well as knowing the difference between DCS and real life, at least when we talk about known larger differences like the one regarding Force Correlate.

I'm right there with you.

 

5 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

For many years, people here on the forum have pointed out that Force Correlate isn't used as a long range sniper IRL, and is instead used to launch at sufficiently large, low-contrast targets where pinpoint accuracy isn't the primary concern.

thanks for the info, however, the F16 also got this "sniper" mode is it the same story?

[Yurgon]

6 hours ago, Hobel said:

thanks for the info, however, the F16 also got this "sniper" mode is it the same story?

Probably yes, since it's the same missile. Might even be the same code that allows this mechanic and is shared between the modules. I don't know if Force Correlate would be used differently in the F-16 in real life, but with the Maverick using the same seeker as it does in the A-10, I assume they'll behave the same after launch.

[Caldera]

Shein,

Cool video, I enjoyed it allot.

I have modified my chart using your 1.3 Nm minimum firing distance.

 

Caldera

Edited April 20, 2022 by Caldera

[jaylw314]

34 minutes ago, Caldera said:

Shein,

Cool video, I enjoyed it allot.

I have modified my chart using your 1.3 Nm minimum firing distance.

 

Caldera

 

Some of that data you can get from the publicly available 476th Threat Guide, and I'd point out it's probably more important to consider the time the SAM takes to detect and engage you.  For the SA-15 it's something like 10 seconds, for the SA-8 it's more like 30 seconds.  That makes HUGE difference as to how you can pop up to attack.  With the SA-8, you have all the time in the world, even if you're still technically between min and max range.  With the SA-15, you've got much less time to do your business and then get out of harm's way

[Caldera]

Jay,

Thanks for the link.  That is a quality website and I am considering a donation.

Knowing the acquisition times will be extremely useful.  I will put them on my chart, which is on my wall next to my desk for easy reference.  I can not remember the specs of all the SA systems on the fly.  My head buzzes with the sound of radar track...

The testing that I did was with the SA unit(s) placed (elev ~ 10 ft) as far on the west coast of Caucasus that I could get it / them.    With me flying in from the west over the water with the autopilot engaged at a constant altitude, speed, heading and starting from an out of range position moving directly toward the SA unit(s).   I recorded when the search and tracking radar noticed me and when the SA system fired.  I suppose, for me to test the acquisition times I would need to start the mission in track range and see how long it takes for the SA unit to get a shot off etc...

Mine and Shein's numbers are DCS version specific and differ a bit from the 475th.   Most notable, flying in at 50 AGL the SA-15 took me out 100% of the time and at under 30 AGL I could pylon into right it.

For example:  SA-15  475th Threat Database

Ammunition Qty:  8 Missiles per TELAR
Reloading Time: 4 seconds between missile launches
Acquisition Time: 9 Seconds
Minimum Effective Range: 0.8 nautical miles  <-- 1.3
Maximum Effective Range: 6.5 nautical miles <-- 8.0
Minimum Effective Altitude: 60 feet <-- 30
Maximum Effective Altitude: 26,000 feet  <-- 20
Countermeasures: Chaff
Defensive Manoeuvre: Terrain Mask
Break turn to place missile on beam
High Speed Split-S (>M0.9) into extending S-Turns

 

Shein,

More Video!  More Video!

Caldera

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Caldera said:

Jay,

Thanks for the link.  That is a quality website and I am considering a donation.

Knowing the acquisition times will be extremely useful.  I will put them on my chart, which is on my wall next to my desk for easy reference.  I can not remember the specs of all the SA systems on the fly.  My head buzzes with the sound of radar track...

The testing that I did was with the SA unit(s) placed (elev ~ 10 ft) as far on the west coast of Caucasus that I could get it / them.    With me flying in from the west over the water with the autopilot engaged at a constant altitude, speed, heading and starting from an out of range position moving directly toward the SA unit(s).   I recorded when the search and tracking radar noticed me and when the SA system fired.  I suppose, for me to test the acquisition times I would need to start the mission in track range and see how long it takes for the SA unit to get a shot off etc...

Mine and Shein's numbers are DCS version specific and differ a bit from the 475th.   Most notable, flying in at 50 AGL the SA-15 took me out 100% of the time and at under 30 AGL I could pylon into right it.

Bear in mind that document is several years old now, so it's not surprising the numbers are a little off.

For testing acquisition time, I'd suggest popping up from terrain within range and timing it from there.  You'd be amazed at how much time you actually have for the older systems.  The newer ones are, unsurprisingly, far less pleasant  

[applepiefrost]

On 4/20/2022 at 8:16 PM, Caldera said:

Shein,

Cool video, I enjoyed it allot.

I have modified my chart using your 1.3 Nm minimum firing distance.

 

Caldera

 

Are you willing to share the actual document instead of a screenshot of it? I'm writing my own implementation of an IADS and this seems like nice resource to do range tweaking on it. Totally OK if you don't want to though!

[Aquorys]

Quote

(King39) So, > 18,000 msl and/or < 1.3 miles.

~18k AGL, not MSL. If that Gauntlet sits on top of high enough terrain, it will still shoot you out of the sky at 23k MSL.

Quote

(ASAP) Alternatively, if max alt is 18K just fly over it and drop a bomb on it. 

That's what I have successfully done countless times, typically using GBU-12s, GBU-38s or GBU-31s (same for taking out Roland, Grison, Gecko, and similar systems). However, I've done that with the Viper, I'm not a Warthog pilot, so I can't talk about how much sense it would make to fly the Warthog at high altitude.

[ASAP]

7 hours ago, Aquorys said:

~18k AGL, not MSL. If that Gauntlet sits on top of high enough terrain, it will still shoot you out of the sky at 23k MSL.

That's what I have successfully done countless times, typically using GBU-12s, GBU-38s or GBU-31s (same for taking out Roland, Grison, Gecko, and similar systems). However, I've done that with the Viper, I'm not a Warthog pilot, so I can't talk about how much sense it would make to fly the Warthog at high altitude.

I would think Warthogs prefer to stay high as much as they can for a lot of reasons, one of them being threat avoidance. Unless there’s a bigger threat that they can’t overfly, it’s probably a lot safer than trying to run in low and avoid it. Plus it is easier to find targets and communicate. 

[Zodiacc]

-If you'are facing with the  SA-15 there is something wrong with the mission-plan.Hog is not supposed to be engage with the SAMs.However it is a DCS and you can do whatever you want.

-Taking out SA-15 is not a big deal, you just need a masking area AGM-65 or Lofting a GBU-38 will work fine.

-For the force-correlate option as Yurgon said it is not for longer engagements.When you can't acquire solid lock on target or the target contrast is too big such as building, you can use force correlate and still take the shot.

[Dragon1-1]

On 4/29/2022 at 8:12 PM, Zodiacc said:

-For the force-correlate option as Yurgon said it is not for longer engagements.When you can't acquire solid lock on target or the target contrast is too big such as building, you can use force correlate and still take the shot.

IRL, it is pretty inaccurate, but "it's not for long engagements" is not exactly true. In most cases, when using the Mavs, you'll be limited by seeker range. If that is not an issue, like with FC mode, you might as well launch from max aerodynamic range, especially since it's not like the target is going to move. Buildings are rather easy to hit, and as such, they can indeed be engaged from further away than you would engage a vehicle with a Mav D.

Trying to use it to knock out SAMs from further off is indeed unrealistic, or at least would be impractical IRL, being a dice roll at best. I'm not saying it wouldn't be tried if there was no other option, and if you launched enough Mavs that way one of them could hit, but it wouldn't be the first resort nor something that can be relied on.