Laser Channel Confusion

[Captain Orso]

On MP I always change ALL the set laser channels to something else, so that there is never a conflict with another player.

Generally I just go down the right side. So Channel 1 is set to R, 2 to Q, 3 to P, and 4 to N. Then I change LST and LRFD to R. If I change nothing else, this works.

Yesterday I was getting ready to use a JTACing Predator to fire some Hellfires. This is a 4YA European Caucasus PVE server. In the F10 menu you can check which Predator is using which frequency. The one I was getting ready to use, used 1681, so I set Q to 1681 in preparation and went on my merry way.

By the time I got to where the Predator was flying, all of it's targets had already been eliminated, so I went to to a different target location.

When I get into position, I had George find a target. I always set VID -> CPG Sight (R2) -> TADS (T6) -> Zoom (L3) so that I can see exactly what George is targeting and if there are obstructions or anything I need to pay attention to. FOV was perfect, no building or trees nearby, target in the open with no obstructions. I have George permission to fire and he confirmed, but no fire, repeat, repeat, repeat, no firing.

On a hunch I flew by behind the ridge I was looking over, landed and changed the Hellfire channels to 1 = A, 2 = B, 3 = C, and 4 = D, because no other aircraft where anywhere nearby, and set LST and LRFD to A.

I returned to my firing position, had George target the same unit, and let him fire -- VOOSH -- and the Hellfire was off and hit.

So what was wrong with channel Q having been manually changed and Q assigned to the Hellfire's secondary channel?

I don't get what's going on here. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Edited April 15, 2022 by Captain Orso
moar...

[admiki]

Shortest explanation: it's work in progress.

And what was your Hellfire mode? LOBL, LOAL? So far, we know that everything up to C always works. Going above C might give you problems.

You also said you changed Q code, but did not say what channel you set for both LRFD and missile seeker.

It looks to me that you are quite familiar with messing with channels/codes, but because of that exact reason you might have overlooked something and had different codes.

Besides, if George is reluctant to fire, I WAS missiles myself and fire myself (if LOAL, only way to actually hit something is to do it yourself, I have posted procedure on different thread) 

[Captain Orso]

Thanks for the reply, admiki.

Hellfires were only in LOBL.

LST and LRFD were in R, the same as the primary channel.

If I take charge of the Hellfires and set them to LOAL, how do I tell George to laze the target, and how can I confirm that He's actually doing it?

[AvroLanc]

49 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

Thanks for the reply, admiki.

Hellfires were only in LOBL.

LST and LRFD were in R, the same as the primary channel.

If I take charge of the Hellfires and set them to LOAL, how do I tell George to laze the target, and how can I confirm that He's actually doing it?

You said you fired Hellfire with PRI Chan Q and your LRFD was on R? Well that’s the problem, if so. Or was it a JTAC illuminating with Q? Did you get a large solid LOBL box and PRI CHANNEL TRK before firing?

Hellfire have PRI and ALT channel. At the moment the ALT chan serves absolutely no purpose, until we get the RIPPLE launch mode, at which point it will. (The system will only code and fire the PRI channel anyway, even with Ripple - it just swaps the PRI and ALT codes after the current PRI is launched.)

George can only use DIR LOAL mode effectively at the moment. He will start lasing when he sees the LASE 1 TARGET message on the HAD. He can’t use LO or HI properly because you can’t instruct him to set an appropriate Acquisition Source from the pilot position yet. 

[S. Low]

George lazes automatically when you tell him to pick a target from the ai list 

[S. Low]

15 minutes ago, AvroLanc said:

You said you fired Hellfire with PRI Chan Q and your LRFD was on R? Well that’s the problem, if so. Or was it a JTAC illuminating with Q? Did you get a large solid LOBL box and PRI CHANNEL TRK before firing?

Hellfire have PRI and ALT channel. At the moment the ALT chan serves absolutely no purpose, until we get the RIPPLE launch mode, at which point it will. (The system will only code and fire the PRI channel anyway, even with Ripple - it just swaps the PRI and ALT codes after the current PRI is launched.)

George can only use DIR LOAL mode effectively at the moment. He will start lasing when he sees the LASE 1 TARGET message on the HAD. He can’t use LO or HI properly because you can’t instruct him to set an appropriate Acquisition Source from the pilot position yet. 

I’m not sure the ACQ source is the reason for george’s issues? ACQ is just a reference point. Feel free to correct if I’m wrong. But you fire hellfires in LOAL by default. LOBL is activated when you laze prior to launching, but otherwise the hellfire launches default in LOAL. You reference a direction and fire LOAL. You may set Hi as traj so the hellfire lofts up in flight before scanning for a laser. But it’s scanning down in a fov for a laser code. Picks it up and guides in.

 

Whats this issue with George and LOAL supposedly? Guess I should figure that out first 

[Captain Orso]

50 minutes ago, AvroLanc said:

You said you fired Hellfire with PRI Chan Q and your LRFD was on R?

No, I never said any such thing.

"Channel 1 is set to R, 2 to Q, 3 to P, and 4 to N. Then I change LST and LRFD to R"

"I set Q to 1681"

"I have (sic.) George permission to fire and he confirmed, but no fire, repeat, repeat, repeat, no firing."

Until I changed 1 back to A it was on R. While ! was on R LST and LRFD were on R as well.

50 minutes ago, AvroLanc said:

 

Well that’s the problem, if so. Or was it a JTAC illuminating with Q? Did you get a large solid LOBL box and PRI CHANNEL TRK before firing?

Hellfire have PRI and ALT channel. At the moment the ALT chan serves absolutely no purpose, until we get the RIPPLE launch mode, at which point it will. (The system will only code and fire the PRI channel anyway, even with Ripple - it just swaps the PRI and ALT codes after the current PRI is launched.)

George can only use DIR LOAL mode effectively at the moment.

I have only used LOBL, which is automatically DIR.

50 minutes ago, AvroLanc said:

He will start lasing when he sees the LASE 1 TARGET message on the HAD. He can’t use LO or HI properly because you can’t instruct him to set an appropriate Acquisition Source from the pilot position yet. 

 

[S. Low]

2 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

No, I never said any such thing.

"Channel 1 is set to R, 2 to Q, 3 to P, and 4 to N. Then I change LST and LRFD to R"

"I set Q to 1681"

"I have (sic.) George permission to fire and he confirmed, but no fire, repeat, repeat, repeat, no firing."

Until I changed 1 back to A it was on R. While ! was on R LST and LRFD were on R as well.

I have only used LOBL, which is automatically DIR.

 

I’m being pedantic but I believe LOBL has its own unique trajectory. DIR traj doesn’t affect it 

[Captain Orso]

From my understanding, LOBL means the target is being lazed by the aircraft carrying it. Part of the procedure to fire it is for the Missile to confirm it is locked on the laser signal. When fired the missile flies directly to the laser signal on the painted target, thus the description DIR.

LOAL is mainly used for attacking a target painted by a foreign source (eg: another Apache or a JTAC). It can also be used if there is too much signal scatter, because for example a tree branch is in the way or the surface of the vehicle is to obtuse and cluttered with stuff.

Putting the missile into LOAL TRAJ HI tells the missile to take a high flight path, but look for a scattered or possibly weak signal while in flight (I read that a laser source with more than 2° deflection from the missile is considered a scattered signal).

[AvroLanc]

13 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

No, I never said any such thing.

"Channel 1 is set to R, 2 to Q, 3 to P, and 4 to N. Then I change LST and LRFD to R"

"I set Q to 1681"

"I have (sic.) George permission to fire and he confirmed, but no fire, repeat, repeat, repeat, no firing."

Until I changed 1 back to A it was on R. While ! was on R LST and LRFD were on R as well.

I have only used LOBL, which is automatically DIR.

 

OK, but there’s lots of variables at play here and lots to get pick apart. 
 

I’ve been using the Q, L, P codes etc with success. If your JTAC was illuminating properly and the missile was seeing the laser you should have got a PRI CHANNEL TRACK message and large LOBL box. If you didn’t then maybe you didn’t have LOS or there was an issue with the actual frequency not matching.
Unless maybe you were intending to shoot LOAL and weren’t pointing the aircraft in the targets direction, so the missile never picked up the laser spot because of that? 

DIR is not LOBL. DIR is a LOAL trajectory that is a separate thing. 

[AvroLanc]

6 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

From my understanding, LOBL means the target is being lazed by the aircraft carrying it. Part of the procedure to fire it is for the Missile to confirm it is locked on the laser signal. When fired the missile flies directly to the laser signal on the painted target, thus the description DIR.

LOAL is mainly used for attacking a target painted by a foreign source (eg: another Apache or a JTAC). It can also be used if there is too much signal scatter, because for example a tree branch is in the way or the surface of the vehicle is to obtuse and cluttered with stuff.

Putting the missile into LOAL TRAJ HI tells the missile to take a high flight path, but look for a scattered or possibly weak signal while in flight (I read that a laser source with more than 2° deflection from the missile is considered a scattered signal).

Your half right. There’s LOBL and LOAL, and Autonomous (self) and Remote (third party) designation.  You can have any combination of those 4.  But there’s also 3 different LOAL trajectory DIR/LO/HI. LO and HI work different to DIR in the way it directs you to aim nose, via constraints box. 
Of these LO and HI would work best for third party designation, but don’t technically have to be. DIR would work best for autonomous LOAL, but again not in all cases etc etc. 

Many ways to skin a cat.

Your comment about a scattered signal is partially correct, you’ll get a BACKSCATTER message and launching in LOAL DIR is one way to overcome it. 
 

[S. Low]

23 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

From my understanding, LOBL means the target is being lazed by the aircraft carrying it. Part of the procedure to fire it is for the Missile to confirm it is locked on the laser signal. When fired the missile flies directly to the laser signal on the painted target, thus the description DIR.

LOAL is mainly used for attacking a target painted by a foreign source (eg: another Apache or a JTAC). It can also be used if there is too much signal scatter, because for example a tree branch is in the way or the surface of the vehicle is to obtuse and cluttered with stuff.

Putting the missile into LOAL TRAJ HI tells the missile to take a high flight path, but look for a scattered or possibly weak signal while in flight (I read that a laser source with more than 2° deflection from the missile is considered a scattered signal).

The trajectory modes apply to LOAL. LOBL has a unique semi loft trajectory.

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/297249-hellfire-loblloal-and-the-4-trajectories/