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Do you want DCS to change to subscription based payment model


skywalker22

DCS changes to subscription based payment model  

167 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like DCS change to subscription service instead of current one buying each model seperately?

    • YES (anual fixed payment and cheeper modules, terrains, campaigns,...)
      13
    • NO, leave it as it is, its just fine
      146
    • Not sure
      8

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Subscription model is a new emerging trend for the gaming industry. As a revolution, it quickly outpaced the traditional model of selling single copies of games. Immediately following Netflix as the successful video subscription service, gaming subscription can only be more promising. Changing business model to subscription based is to give ED and their partners oportunity for hopefully better income, which would eventualy lead them to work on numerous things that are still missing or are not properly designed in awesome game like DCS already is.

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  • ED Team

We have had this discussion many times here on the forum. We have no plans to move to a subscription payment model. What we have now works for us and our customers, with the free trials people can make informed choices before they buy. 

Thank you

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32 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

Subscription model is a new emerging trend for the gaming industry

 

Not every new thing is better than their predecessor.  I like subscriptions for items like e-magazines .. where if I cancel the subscription later on I still get to keep the issues that were delivered while the subscription was running.

But for software? .. no, thanks. I still use Office 2013 precisely because I don't want to have to pay yearly to keep using Office 365 (its succesor). I've been a user of Adobe lightroom since its release; but I was forced to subscribe because the map function of Lightroom ceased to work and Adobe in the meantime moved onto a subscription-only model, however I'm very upset with having been forced to subscribe and so I'm still looking for a comparable alternative software to switch onto .. Adobe will eventually lose me as customer, and I'm not alone in feeling like this, so I'm not convinced that it's good for the software maker either.

Microsoft uses a mixed approach with its Flight Simulator ... you can buy a perpetual license for US$ 60, or you can subscribe to xbox and pay US$ 10 per month .. .I used the subscription to test it before purchasing, and I'm glad I did, as it was impossible to install it sucessfully on my PC ... I tried a lot but it always freezed mid-install.

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I used to propose this myself some years ago however with time I have reformed my position. I don't think DCS has a finance issue. It's a priorities issue. 

More and more time is allocated to piling new content onto a broken base game. What DCS needs, and its been said for years now, is a period of dev time dedicated solely to fixing / upgrading the core game. The amount of bugs that have existed in game for almost 10 years is unbelievable. The amount of basic features that are missing from the game is comical. ED thinks that 'shiny new thing' makes up decades of old busted code layered on top of each other. 

With that in mind I'm quite happy for this to remain free. I'm not paying a subscription fee for ED to continue to ignore the core game. If I had the money I'd buy out ED and fix the game myself!

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3 minutes ago, al531246 said:

... broken base game ... The amount of bugs that have existed in game for almost 10 years is unbelievable. The amount of basic features that are missing from the game is comical ... decades of old busted code layered on top of each other. 

 

Wonder why you keep using a game that you feel so unworthy ...  🙄

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1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

Subscription model is a new emerging trend for the gaming industry. As a revolution, it quickly outpaced the traditional model of selling single copies of games. 

 

Is this new model better for customers?

Is this model better for giant AAA game publishers?

Is this model better for niche products like high complexity combat flight sims?

Edit: is ED big enough for a subscription model to work well for both ED and it's customers?  I doubt it. We want very complex very high quality... that sells in very low volume (relative to AAA publishers), no matter what the model is, we'll be paying  a lot for it.

 

1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

 Immediately following Netflix as the successful video subscription service, gaming subscription can only be more promising.

 

Netflix WAS successful. 

How they doing now? How many subscribers have they been  losing the  last couple years?

How have their new pricing increases and policy changes affected value for customers?

Sorry, but your assertion that subscription can ONLY lead to better things, is shortsighted. I'm not saying it's guaranteed the wrong direction... but your rosy prediction is NOT actually certain at all.

 

1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

 Changing business model to subscription based is to give ED and their partners oportunity for hopefully better income, which would eventualy lead them to work on numerous things that are still missing or are not properly designed in awesome game like DCS already is.

So here you admit that you aren't certain the money would be better, hoping  it would  be. I agree: i don't think it's certain either!

You suggest that the extra income, if it comes, could help fix long term issues with DCS. I disagree. I  don't  think it's a question  of cash availability. I think  it's more about availability of good coders. There's probably a very tiny global community of coders who  can produce well in something like a flight  or combat simulator. Managers choosing what projects those coders are actually  working on, is the issue. Maybe they  need to take a pause between modules, to spend a month just working on DCS World? I  dunno. But I don't think subscription it the holy grail solution! 

Bottom line: you are making assumptions that might not be true, or might not result in the goal you and I wish for. 


Edited by Rick50
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24 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Wonder why you keep using a game that you feel so unworthy ...  🙄

He does make a fair point though.  There are plenty of issues in the base game - some I recall you have lamented about yourself over the years.

I've known other developers take time out to address issues and delay new content.  Granted, one of those developers was Ubisoft who I doubt could even pour water out of a bucket.  But still they tried.  Frontier Developments too - a relatively small developer much like ED I imagine.

It helps build trust in the brand and fosters good will between customer and developer.

As for subscriptions ... no thanks lol.

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Let's see how well this went the last 10 times it's been suggested:

And all the arguments against contained within them are just as valid here.

16 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Subscription model is a new emerging trend for the gaming industry.

And a pretty depressing one IMO.

16 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

As a revolution, it quickly outpaced the traditional model of selling single copies of games.

Yes, because it's more a more efficient way at sucking money out of customers

16 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Immediately following Netflix as the successful video subscription service, gaming subscription can only be more promising.

Oh is it now?

It's probably a lot more promising for the people selling it, because you can sell effectively the same thing and just make a load more money from it (*cough* Adobe *cough* Autodesk).

And it's absolutely great that more and more companies are adopting this strategy of boneheadedly locking features you already paid for behind a subscription paywall where it makes negative amounts of sense.

 

If ED wants to make a paid for base client? Fine.

Wanna charge for upgrades? Fine.

Wanna charge for asset packs? Fine.

Wanna charge for maps? Fine.


Edited by Northstar98
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1 hour ago, epoch said:

I've known other developers take time out to address issues and delay new content.  Granted, one of those developers was Ubisoft who I doubt could even pour water out of a bucket.  But still they tried.  Frontier Developments too - a relatively small developer much like ED I imagine.

I know ED don't plan to go subscription, and I have no issues with that (admittedly, I have nothing to gain here - I own all DLC) even though I'd understand if they explored that avenue (e.g., with a mixed approach: subscribe to maps only etc.). I personally despise the subscription / microtransaction based refinancing model for software (it's good for services), because (for me) it represents the acknowledgement that most customers are stupid and can't see that what looks cheaper right now is on average more expensive after a short while. "Pay once, keep forever" is IMHO a more honest model (you know upfront what you are getting into), and exactly the reason why it's been completely outpaced by the grifter's microTrx/subscription model. The downside is that it's more difficult to grow you customer base short-term, and I'm happy to find that ED have seen their business past those low-hanging fruit and are going for long-term sustainability. Let's hope they succeed.

WRT Frontier and Ubisoft - unlike DCS their base offerings (to my knowledge) aren't free. It's debatable if Frontier ever delayed the Horizons or Odyssey expansions to fix the base game. If they did, I never noticed. And Ubisoft - we shall not speak of them to spare me bursting a vein 🙂 

[Edit: According to Wikipedia (grain of salt, please!) Frontier have around 750 employees and are traded on the LSE, while ED is privately held and clocks in at some 150 employees]


Edited by cfrag
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2 hours ago, al531246 said:

 

More and more time is allocated to piling new content onto a broken base game.

 

 

My DCS isn't broken.

 

I get in my plane, I have an enjoyable flight over a nice map, and I land.

 

Works for me.   :drinks_cheers:


Edited by Beirut
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Some of the planes, but all of the maps!

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suppose, perish the thought, ED goes through hard times. For whatever reason, the company ceases operations. Maybe financial, maybe a loss of customer interest, maybe a govt direct order.

With the current model... customers can't buy new products, but they can theoretically continue using their already purchased modules, theoretically indefinately. They "own" their modules.

On a subscription... company shuts down, so does your modules, never to fly the DCS skies again. Just like many previous "online only" games. On a subscription, it would still check even if you wanted to fly single  player, and without a response wouldn't fire up. 

Be careful what you wish for, there's usually unintended consequences that come with wishes.

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3 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Subscription model is a new emerging trend for the gaming industry.

I can't wait for it to die.

3 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

As a revolution, it quickly outpaced the traditional model of selling single copies of games.

Bringing increased cost for no benefit.

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19 minutes ago, Rick50 said:

suppose, perish the thought, ED goes through hard times. For whatever reason, the company ceases operations. 

With the current model... customers can't buy new products, but they can theoretically continue using their already purchased modules, theoretically indefinately. They "own" their modules.

 

Not really, currently when you start-up DCS the first thing it does is check your account at ED .. if there is no server to connect to, it will not let you fly.  

True, you could use off-line mode ... but that assumes that you will have prior knowledge of an upcoming shut down, as it needs to be enabled after validating your account and machine. And you would still lose the ability to use multiplayer ... and it would last until you upgrade or change your PC, as this mode is tied to your hardware.

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Well fair enough. I was just pointing out a known downside  to subscription. That we might be no better off after a shutdown is maybe slightly off topic perhaps, but thanks for posting.

 


Edited by Rick50
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3 hours ago, al531246 said:

I used to propose this myself some years ago however with time I have reformed my position. I don't think DCS has a finance issue. It's a priorities issue. 

More and more time is allocated to piling new content onto a broken base game. What DCS needs, and its been said for years now, is a period of dev time dedicated solely to fixing / upgrading the core game. The amount of bugs that have existed in game for almost 10 years is unbelievable. The amount of basic features that are missing from the game is comical. ED thinks that 'shiny new thing' makes up decades of old busted code layered on top of each other. 

With that in mind I'm quite happy for this to remain free. I'm not paying a subscription fee for ED to continue to ignore the core game. If I had the money I'd buy out ED and fix the game myself!

Right, but how do they finance that? We have no idea how much of a margin they are operating within. If there was ever going to be a time to take a tactical pause on module creation it would be right now. Most of the most iconic western combat aircraft from the late 20th early 21st century are already in game of being developed by third parties. Granted most of those still need some work done to be considered complete. But what is lacking is improvements to the core game itself. In the last 4 years DCS has gone from a sandbox with a far flung and mostly unrelated plane set, to the most complete study sim of early to mid 2000's, just call it the war on terror years, U.S. air power ever made. With a decent representation of the sky's over WWII Europe to boot. On top of that at least Western late cold War pirod is in the works. So the modules are there. But the core game still very much resembles LOMAC. We, especially the single players, need a better war environment to fly these awesome modules in. It was definitely a five year project to get the plane set here. It probably a five year project to get the core game to the point most of us would like to see it. But how do they pay for that. Multi core optimization, realistic and dynamic ATC, vastly improved aircraft AI, proper IADS integration, some kind of ground vehicle Ai, same for navel Ai. How are they going to pay for it? 

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I am vary glad that you aren't going to a subscription base model. However I suspect what the OP is asking, indeed what want of us are asking is this. We the consumer want to see some real updates to the core game. I'm not going to waste my time listening them off you read the wish list after all. And we recognize that what we are asking for will not be cheap. Many of us, befinitely myself included, are willing to pay for these improvements. And we would like to know how we can. I would gladly make a onetime payment equivalent to the most expensive module to help pay to improve the core game. While I'm certain that a percentage of each module gose to maintaining and improving DCS itself. Creating a whole new aircraft from nothing isn't cheap. We recognize that overhauling the core simulation is a massive undertaking, and we are willing to foot the bill. Please not with a subscription, but how can we the community help? 

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6 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

Multi core optimization, realistic and dynamic ATC, vastly improved aircraft AI, proper IADS integration, some kind of ground vehicle Ai, same for navel Ai. How are they going to pay for it? 

 

Obviously, by releasing more Modules, there is no other way to fund improvements onto what is basically a free core game ... and I have no problem with that, looking forward to the Mirage F-1, MB-339, Kiowa, F4U Corsair, Eurofighter, MiG-17, Fiat G-91, F-4 Phantom, A-6 Intruder, F-15E and Super Tucano 🙂   ... and I will support my favorite Sim Company by purchasing every one of them 😇

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Just now, Rudel_chw said:

 

Obviously, by releasing more Modules, there is no other way to fund improvements onto what is basically a free core game ... and I have no problem with that, looking forward to the Mirage F-1, MB-339, Kiowa, F4U Corsair, Eurofighter, MiG-17, Fiat G-91, F-4 Phantom, A-6 Intruder, F-15E and Super Tucano 🙂   ... and I will support my favorite Sim Company by purchasing every one of them 😇

The issue with that is only one of those modules that you listed is made by ED. And they are getting an asset from Heatblur with that one. So the profit going into the game itself will be minimal. Personally I would announce another game. I have no idea what I would call it and say that all the currently purchased content will be fully compatible, but the base game will not be free to play. Then pipe the preceedes from every new player into the core improvements. Honestly I have no idea how to tackle the issue of the core game being free to play, and revenue being generated by new module purchases. DCS wasn't free to play in the beginning. And there was a DCS for each module. That did not last long though. The problem is what we have now still looks alot like that free to play game. Improvements have been slowly trickling in since 2019. But its slow going. I'm not saying throwing mony at the problem would be the only solution. But it would certainly help. And frankly not everyone can or will buy every module. I certainly couldn't for a long time. And I bought the Blackshark day one. There need to ba a way for the community to pay for all the stuff war are waiting to get. And honestly the sooner the better. 

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14 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

More is better.

 

More maps. More planes. More everything. 

I don't disagree with you. Better is also better. No amount of new content can improve the core of the game those new maps.and new planes run on. Just look at how much more fun it is to dogfight the Ai today then it was six or eight months ago. How much better  could it be to do it in fully dynamic weather. Or to have to cracks an IADS that has multiple EW, C2 nodes, and SAMs with no fore zones that will use some intelligent tactics to bring you down. Or to hunt tanks that actually seek cover, or retreat. Or have a realistic, think non combat flight simulator, ATC to bring you home. None of that is going to be easy. And it's going to eventually need full muti core optimization. None of this stuff is cheap. And ED if they will admit it or not could use a significant shot of income to get it done. 

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5 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

The issue with that is only one of those modules that you listed is made by ED.

 

True, but I'm sure that ED gets a cut from every third party unit sold, I don't know how much but I would guesstimate it to be around the same 30% that Steam have.

 

5 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

And frankly not everyone can or will buy every module. I certainly couldn't for a long time. 

 

On my case, I realized a few years back that the only game I truly enjoyed was DCS, so I simply stopped purchasing so many other games (notable exceptions being the Eurotruck and American truck series), no more Call of Duty, Battlefield, Age of Empires, etc, games for me .. I chose to focus on DCS 🙂

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Eye roll so hard one of them just popped out and rolled across the floor. Now my eye has lint on it -_- Thanks a lot, OP.

-edit

Laaaaaaaaaaaag


Edited by Mars Exulte
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Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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