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AMD 5800X3D, the new King for flight simulators?


maxsin72

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In the last days many reviews were published on net and it seems we have a new cpu who increase really much performance in gaming, it's AMD 5800X3D

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Edited by maxsin72
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Seems so if you play at 1080p.  Pretty strong single core performance there, is it due to the 3D cache or something else?

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1 hour ago, Supmua said:

Seems so if you play at 1080p.  Pretty strong single core performance there, is it due to the 3D cache or something else?

Yes, it's due to the 3d cache. VR is very cpu intensive, so 3d cache may help a lot. 


Edited by maxsin72
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Yeah this got me thinking about my next PC upgrade.  Never been an AMD CPU fan but if this works better with DCS and MSFS then it might be worth exploring.  Need to see some VR benchmarks though, especially with DCS and MSFS.

PC: 9900K/3090, 11700K/2080Ti, 8700K/1080.

Joystick bases: TMW, VPC WarBRD, MT50CM2, VKB GFII, FSSB R3L

Joystick grips: TM (Warthog, F/A-18C), Realsimulator (F-16SGRH, F-18CGRH), VKB (Kosmosima LH, MCG, MCG Pro), VPC MongoosT50-CM2

Throttles: TMW, Winwing Super Taurus, Logitech Throttle Quadrant, Realsimulator Throttle (soon)

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@nikoelshould be able to offer some insight once he has his 🙂

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46 minutes ago, Supmua said:

Yeah this got me thinking about my next PC upgrade.  Never been an AMD CPU fan but if this works better with DCS and MSFS then it might be worth exploring.  Need to see some VR benchmarks though, especially with DCS and MSFS.

Honesty if you don't already have an AMD system with the AM4 socket I'd. wait. This is the end of the line for the current upgrade path. This summer Rysen 4 on a new socket and DDR5 Is coming out. 

 

The 3D cache will be used going forward on the new platform along with other improvements as well as an upgrade path. 

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1 hour ago, DayGlow said:

Honesty if you don't already have an AMD system with the AM4 socket I'd. wait. This is the end of the line for the current upgrade path. This summer Rysen 4 on a new socket and DDR5 Is coming out. 

 

The 3D cache will be used going forward on the new platform along with other improvements as well as an upgrade path. 

I think you are right. 

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I would be very careful and wait further reviews, specifically with DCS.  The single core performance of the 5800X3D is not so good, it is actually less that the 5800X.  How much a big cache will impact in DCS is not known now but could be negligible.  DCS graphic engine requires fast single core performance the way it works now, and there is not official timeline when the graphic engine will be upgraded to multi-core like in most modern games.

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1 hour ago, WipeUout said:

I would be very careful and wait further reviews, specifically with DCS.  The single core performance of the 5800X3D is not so good, it is actually less that the 5800X.  How much a big cache will impact in DCS is not known now but could be negligible.  DCS graphic engine requires fast single core performance the way it works now, and there is not official timeline when the graphic engine will be upgraded to multi-core like in most modern games.

Agree.  Especially given the asking price.  Which if recent experience is any guide, isn't going to have much to do with market price...  

I wouldn't be surprised if it helps in complex SP missions, but I bought a whole nuther computer for less than that...

To me the interesting question is, how it handles MP.  On the client, or on the server.  

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15 hours ago, WipeUout said:

I would be very careful and wait further reviews, specifically with DCS.  The single core performance of the 5800X3D is not so good, it is actually less that the 5800X.  How much a big cache will impact in DCS is not known now but could be negligible.  DCS graphic engine requires fast single core performance the way it works now, and there is not official timeline when the graphic engine will be upgraded to multi-core like in most modern games.

That's why this MSFS chart is important. MSFS also its highly single threaded and relies on cpu IPC for performance. I'm looking for more tests, but so far the large cache seems favorable for Sim titles. 

 

It looks like the cost of the 5800x3d will be around the same as a 5900x here in Canada, so it will be interesting to see if higher cache vs clockrate will win here. 


Edited by DayGlow

"It takes a big man to admit he is wrong...I'm not a big man" Chevy Chase, Fletch Lives

 

3700x - 32gb ram - RTX3080 - Windows 10

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19 hours ago, DayGlow said:

Honesty if you don't already have an AMD system with the AM4 socket I'd. wait. This is the end of the line for the current upgrade path. This summer Rysen 4 on a new socket and DDR5 Is coming out. 

 

The 3D cache will be used going forward on the new platform along with other improvements as well as an upgrade path. 

Yes, this is the correct advice.

But also for those of us that have an AM4 CPU, we're awaiting sim-specific benchmarks to see if it's worth $450 to upgrade from our existing hardware! (A 5600x in my case)

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59 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

Yes, this is the correct advice.

But also for those of us that have an AM4 CPU, we're awaiting sim-specific benchmarks to see if it's worth $450 to upgrade from our existing hardware! (A 5600x in my case)

I think who has an AM4 system could try the cpu buying it from a reseller who accept the return and refund the price of the product. 

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Checked 4K performance (Guru3D.com) and it’s roughly the same as Intel 12 gen, so no clear incentive for me to switch side since I don’t go below 4K res especially in VR. 

PC: 9900K/3090, 11700K/2080Ti, 8700K/1080.

Joystick bases: TMW, VPC WarBRD, MT50CM2, VKB GFII, FSSB R3L

Joystick grips: TM (Warthog, F/A-18C), Realsimulator (F-16SGRH, F-18CGRH), VKB (Kosmosima LH, MCG, MCG Pro), VPC MongoosT50-CM2

Throttles: TMW, Winwing Super Taurus, Logitech Throttle Quadrant, Realsimulator Throttle (soon)

VR: HTC Vive/Pro, Oculus Rift/Quest 2, Valve Index, Varjo Aero

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From some of the MSFS benchmarks I've seen, the 3800X3D is slightly faster than a 12900K with DDR4, but slightly slower than a 12900K with DDR5-6400.

So, it's not an absolute win, but if you've already got an AM4 with high 3800hz DDR4, it appears to be a solid last upgrade before you replace the entire platform.

I'm probably going to grab one because I've got a 5800X platform and a goodly amount of CAS16 DDR4-3600, so it's just a bios and CPU swap, for a likely decent step up in VR performance. 

However, if I wasn't so heavily invested in the AM4 platform right now, and mostly GPU limited, I'd expect Raptor Lake and Zen 4 with DDR5-6400+ to roflstop it later this year. 

As it is, what I *really* need is either a 7900 XT or whatever the Lovelace *090 gets called to feed the frames. Even with the fholger's FSR, and a 3080 Ti, my GPU frame times are still nearly twice as long as what my current CPU can do. 

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18 hours ago, Supmua said:

Checked 4K performance (Guru3D.com) and it’s roughly the same as Intel 12 gen, so no clear incentive for me to switch side since I don’t go below 4K res especially in VR. 

This is for the combined performance across many titles. But DCS is unlike any of those titles tested. It's one of the very few remaining games out there that can be still CPU limited [chocked] even at 4K or 7.5K (in VR)

Best is to wait for early adopters to get their paws on it and see the performance gains (or god forbid losses) - I’m going to be one of them

Out of all the benchmarks, Assetto Corsa is most similar to DCS as it only utilises 2 Threads. The SiNgLe ThReAd PeRfOrMaNcE iS kInG comments are kind of thin though. 5800X3D with lower clocks and IPC beats 12900K there by over 20% - additionally with the latter running one of the fastest DDR5 kits that cost more than 5800X3D  

On the other hand Cities Skylines which is also single threaded had the 5800X3D trailing 12900K by 5%. I suspect this is the case because Skylines is fairly simple and requires a lot of compute rather than memory storage to Brrrt frames at you

Many simulator style games are limited by draw calls and this bottleneck is significantly helped by the extra cache.

In VR - Consistency is king. I strongly suspect there are bottlenecks within bandwidth for DCS. I am hopeful that I will be correct, but only time will tell. Aka tomorrow (or maybe day after? Since in Australia we seem to get things a day late)


Edited by nikoel
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Ordered my 5800X3D. Will be testing with a Q2 and 64GB ram. Upgrading from a 5600x. I have 4 AM4 boxes in the house, not a waste of money if it proves to be slower.  I too am hoping the MSFS numbers translate well to DCS. 

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On 4/17/2022 at 9:00 AM, WipeUout said:

I would be very careful and wait further reviews, specifically with DCS.  The single core performance of the 5800X3D is not so good, it is actually less that the 5800X.  How much a big cache will impact in DCS is not known now but could be negligible.  DCS graphic engine requires fast single core performance the way it works now, and there is not official timeline when the graphic engine will be upgraded to multi-core like in most modern games.

That's true....but it also depends on the resolution you're playing in. In 4K, it makes zero difference if I run my 5900X on 4700 Mhz Single Core or 4900 MHz. The FPS-Difference is less than 1%. It may be slightly more with 1440p - but than again on an ultra wide in 1440p it's probably closer to 4K. With a Ryzen 5000 Series or equivalent Core i, you are most likely not CPU bound*. (*unless perhaps in VR - different story)

Nevertheless. If you wanted to upgrade from an older CPU generation anyway or want to build a new system - it may be an attractive offer. (if you're able to get one that is...)


Edited by Hiob
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On 4/21/2022 at 4:41 PM, Hiob said:

you are most likely not CPU bound*. (*unless perhaps in VR - different story)

Very important factor to take into consideration before changing your CPU.  You have to understand where you are and what can improve your system performance.  Consider the following diagram which I call the DCS VR Settings Game:

 The Settings Game.JPG

Analyzing your frame times for both CPU and GPU for a specific level of details/quality will help you see what kind of benefit you can gain from upgrading the CPU.  When setting our graphics quality level, we all try to stay within an acceptable framerate for most of the time.  In order to achieve this, we set things up in order to have the CPU frametime average at a certain level that will be equal or bellow what is takes to generate the target FPS.

The GPU generate frames from data provided by your CPU.  Ideally, you need the CPU frametime to be the same or lower than the GPU frametime in order to fully use the potential of your GPU.  In this situation, you are GPU limited and it is what most of us experience in VR as it is very demanding to pump out all those pixels in such large amount.  We tweak settings for countless hours in order to be in this situation where our GPUs are being used to the maximum.  At one point, you may increase the performance of your CPU by overclocking or upgrading but eventually, it is the GPU that will not keep up.  At that point, not matter how low your CPU frame time is, the average FPS will not change much.   If you experience very high peaks in your CPU frametime, then it might be helpful to upgrade but It will not increase your GPU`s performance.

You have to analyze what is your particular situation by monitoring your CPU and GPU frametime.  fpsVR is a great tool for this.  Understanding where your bottleneck is will guide you as to where to invest next and it might be a better GPU that is needed.

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40 minutes ago, WipeUout said:

   If you experience very high peaks in your CPU frametime, then it might be helpful to upgrade but It will not increase your GPU`s performance.

I generally agree with all you said, except this. Or at least I‘d put it another way.

If your cpu frame times are mostly around 12 ms for example, but you experience regular spikes well above that (e.g. 20+), I would rather search for background processes or similar (network traffic) that is bothering your cpu. CPU frame times should be pretty consistent unless the scenery changes - so if your overall level of frame times (without the spikes) is insufficient for your liking, than you need to tune down settings or upgrade the cpu. Spikes are a sign of other culprits imho.


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"Many simulator style games are limited by draw calls and this bottleneck is significantly helped by the extra cache."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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19 minutes ago, M1Combat said:

"Many simulator style games are limited by draw calls and this bottleneck is significantly helped by the extra cache."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is one factor, and there are many more such as single core utilization.  Hardware Unboxed made a very interesting comparison between the 5800X3D and the i9-12900k, see it here`: 

 

If you look at performance at 4k, there are a lot of instance where the games are GPU bound.  For DCS in VR, it is even more demanding than 4k.  The 5800X3D is definitely very impressive but will probably not have a big impact if your GPU is the bottleneck.  Interesting also are some titles benchmarked are single core, just like DCS.

The 5800X3D is a good solution if you already have a AM4 based system, as long as you can find the chip and buy it...

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I get CPU bound a lot of times with my 5800x in VR. Usual CPU frametime is from around 10ms in single player with little going on and up to 25ms on busy servers with a lot of things going on, and up to 30ms+ if something cpu-intensive is happening close by me. My GPU frametime is usually much more stable than the CPU, and around 17-19ms. The CPU frametime kills FPS in multiplayer. People can go on and on about stuff doesn't matter for 4K, and VR is even higher, but I have tested it with fpsVR in DCS, and it it is pretty clear that heavy missions kills frames in VR because of CPU.

If the 5800x3D cache have good effect on DCS it will be an instant buy here. I own a 5800x already and it will just be to just swap it out and the system might be able to live until DDR5 gets cheaper (Zen5 maybe). I'm just waiting for some of the others here that said they have already bought it, and hope that they report back soon with their findings.

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The draw call limitation is one of the primary limitations.  DX12 can only handle so many of those (hard coded limit) and they involve the CPU.  DCS uses so many objects that it takes two draw calls per frame sometimes.  I haven't run the numbers and analyzed the actual number of objects vs DX12 draw call limits...  but maybe even 3 full draw calls per frame in VR because you need all that data for each frustum.

It's a thing.  You can crank up the res (VR again) and start putting large load on the GPU for sure...  But you'll "never" outrun that DX12 draw call limit.  The only thing that helps that is simply raw CPU core speed and/or efficiency.


Edited by M1Combat

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Asus Prime X570P

AMD 3800x

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Using VJoy and UCR to remap Throttle and Clutch into Rudder axis

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22 minutes ago, M1Combat said:

DX12 can only handle so many of those (hard coded limit) and they involve the CPU.

DCS uses DX11, not DX12.

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3 hours ago, WipeUout said:

[...]

The 5800X3D is a good solution if you already have a AM4 based system, as long as you can find the chip and buy it...

I've been seeing pretty solid stock of them.

From the benchmarks it's comparable to an I9-12900K on average, and everyone is waiting on Zen4 later this year, so I'm thinking we'll have solid supply for a couple of months before they wind down production.

I was able to pick one up Wednesday. Haven't had time to set everything up and run all of my benchmarks yet, but will try over the weekend. Based on the Il-2 and MSFS numbers, I'm expecting a 10-15% reduction in CPU frame times from the 5800X, myself. But, we shall see. 

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